Tuh bible in lolcat.

Thats pretty funny. I'm surprised some fanatic christian group hasn't tried to bring the makers of that site to the supreme court to try and get the herectics stoned to death by the Bush regime.

rofl ! It's great xD
@epoch: not trying to be rude but, what's ur problem with christians? D: I've seen you posting stuff like that before :/

because he is a realist Vermonter like me. No disrespect to you religious foke but in this day in age its kinda sad that there is still religion, at least in industrialized countries with such a strong grip on science, that is hard to believe that people still believe in it. And its scary that the people in charge of our country are some of the most hardcore religious fanatics of them all.

for example... you either believe in evolution,dinosaurs or the big bang theory , or "god" not both, now ask your self, which do you believe in.

religion was established as a way for a better way of living, either it was back in the polytheistic days for crop, a way of order (todays law) or just comfort of death ( idk maybe them jihads? hahaha jK!) but like i said, science is the biggest influence on the world these days and has been for a long time. While most of the ridiculous stuff in the bible for example is just a story to provide hope or blah blah blah, the rest of it has been completely dis proven by science.

since i was raised in a some what religious family it was always there. While i was allways skeptical of the whole thing it wasnt untill my 9th grade history teach (mr dean ian hahaha the man!) but he said that out of the first monotheistic religions (Judaism's,Christianity and Islam) out of these monotheistic religions ONE GOD! and thats it, either... one of them is the only true one...Judaism since they were here in all fairness first. or there is no god at all.

He also talked about how either "god" or the people who started it are both some crazy mother fuckers ( which imo they were tripping on rotten yeast in the bread like the witch craft days hahahaah) but.. these ppl or god or w.e are telling each other to go and kill the other religion cause there... bad? or what not idk but either way... god is 1 fucked up person or the ppl interpreting it are just as fucked up..


end rant

Signed
Carbon Based Human Life Form

lol bahlk-1 christianity-0

Bahlk and I are of like minds when it comes to this subject. why you might ask? Well its simple we got drunk, stoned and tripped a lot with each other. What do you do when you are all of those things? You consider things in this world that really don't make sense. One recurring theme was religion. Now you see me posting about Christianity primarily because that is the one that effects us most here in the good'ol US of A.

But in general I believe, Religion is an archaic institution which has FAR out lived its usefulness. It now serves as nothing more than a societal crutch. Science now has the ability to define what we don't understand, which was religions primary function, provide answers to the unexplainable to make people more comfortable. People are afraid of what they don't understand, I believe religion EVOLVED out of this idea. Provide something to alleviate mans inherent timidity towards things which he does not understand and you greatly improve his ability to survive. It also provides a power well to whom ever sees this and chooses to exploit it. Religion, now that we have science to give us objective answers regarding what we don't understand, really only remains as a weakness to humans as a species. That sums up my thoughts on religion in general, not just Christianity, the IDEA of religion.

I know some people may find this hard to believe, but I really don't come out saying this to try and offend anyone. I can't be anymore truthful when I say that, I respect ones choice to believe in what makes sense to them. I regard religion as the scourge, not the people choosing to believe in its many representations. There are INNUMERABLE things that can be learned from the religious beliefs of the world, I just think we take it all WWWWAAAAAAYYYYYYY too seriously.

End rant

I almost forgot, VT FTW!!

Sincerely,
concerned cognitist (not a word but I like the alliteration) AKA Ian/epoch

I edited for two tiny spelling mistakes...does that make me anal or obsessive? I like to call it detail oriented.

BUMP!!!

come on lets get a discussion going!!

Yea, religion = philisophically retarded in the worst possible ways.
Its better not to beleive in any one thing, i like quantum mechanics as it forces u to think deeper into the subject and brings up alot of interesting facts and theories.
I have a theory that stems from the theory of unity, basically we are all of the same consciousness which is that of the universe, it separates our minds with the subconcious but through our subconciousness is where we get our instincts, and how things evolve. Basically all life would be, if that were true, is a universal consiousness constantly trying to come into the physical realm.
In the end though, its just a theory, i dont change my life in any way because of it. Though it does make more sense then christianity XD
And i have to say, the universe is an extremely complex place, to simplify it or speek in absolute terms about it IS philisophically retarded, hence why i say that about religion, ALL RELIGION.

Why do bad things happen to good people?

Why do good things happen to bad people? Why do thieves and pirates get to profit or gain so much for free? Why does the bully get away with beating up the nerd? Why does the leader of an empire get away with torture?

The answer to all of those can be given in a single word. Probability. Most everything is probable, yet not all of it plausible. Nor right or wrong, those are debatable ground themselves, let alone religion. Who REALLY decides what is right and what is wrong? The people. One could say,"well I am me, I am not the people." Ah but you are the people by societal default. Oh please MORE I love philosophical debate! Gimme more! its all in the spirit of sharing ideas no animosity! weee

All i have to say Pernicious is, AMEN MY BROTHA! Let there be the congress of reason and logic! Hallelujah!

"The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion."

-someoneidontremember

Seagull wrote:"The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion."

-someoneidontremember

DING!

Agreed, in the grand scheme of things, how can there be right and wrong in such complexity.
Societies dictate wats right and wrong, good or bad, and those vary in all societies/cultures. And im not saying that ppl should just do wat they want, i think a form of philosophical enlightenment should be tought to all kids in school, so wen they grow up they can just do wats logical, logic = peace.

It makes u think though, the chemical reactions that take place in our brains, are they only there to force us to do some other entities biddings, is it all simply a test, experiment, or is it something even more complex then that and there is no other consciousness involved.....difficult. In my opinion, high levels of emotion (the chemicals that make them) are wat causes ppl to act irrationally, in most cases anyways. Once u have control and logic u are set.

That being said, cant wait till quantum computers are available to the general public, either that or something better, that would be some gaming beast =O

Just read "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. Interesting and necessary book for everyone, especially if you live in the US. A bit slow first half but then it just got better amd better

http://richarddawkins.net/firstChapter,1

Every and i mean every scientist that worked and researched for years and decades in whatever area of research does admit that there have to be a higher intelligent power, avoiding the term god. And why are they forced to that conclusion? Because of probability calculation and rationality. How high was the probability that there was life made possible on earth by coincidence? Youll end up in an endless number to 1. But that has nothing to do with religions i just say there is god.

Now when i read all of your posts i see the effect caused by religions that are misslead and undercut by many wrong stuff and i would probably think like all of you if someone would confront me with that shit. Now what i did i studied by myself found out what really is fact and whats crap i went on where all of you stopped because of the frustration you got from religions tellin you to just believe.

Heres the thing though, just cause we cant fathem our existence as being anything other then the work of a higher power doesnt mean it isnt possible, would be very hard to explain.
Heres another theory, maybe there is consciousness b4 there is life. But not controlled by any one being or even the universe itself, rather a result of something we dont even know about yet, something to do with energy in another realm of existence for ex.

nade maeggs wrote:Every and i mean every scientist that worked and researched for years and decades in whatever area of research does admit that there have to be a higher intelligent power, avoiding the term god. And why are they forced to that conclusion? Because of probability calculation and rationality. How high was the probability that there was life made possible on earth by coincidence? Youll end up in an endless number to 1. But that has nothing to do with religions i just say there is god.

Hey, that's utter bullshit! I'm living proof, if nothing else, being a scientist and an atheist.
The idea you are describing is also flawed. Life didn't arise by mere coincidence, but by the driving force of natural selection. Also, if you defer the explanation of life and the universe to some kind of higher being, you are still left with the question as to what/who created that being. So in reality it doesn't explain anything. I recommend everyone to read "The God Delusion" if you want a deeper understanding and more detailed explanation why nothing supernatural exists.

I wasnt talking about life by coincidence but about the situation that made life possible which has nothing to do with natural selection.

BUMP!!!
come on lets get a discussion going!!

No thank you, this disscussion has been spoken for centuries and still is. I don't plan to bring it to the U, even though it seems it already is.
Just for the record, you contradict yourself.

No disrespect to you religious foke

in this day in age its kinda sad that there is still religion

While most of the ridiculous stuff in the bible

god is 1 fucked up person or the ppl interpreting it are just as fucked up..

Now if that is not being disrespectful, then teach me the meaning of that word.
And what said nade isn't "utter bullshit". It is true that a lot of great scientists end up in that conclusion, same as a lot of philosophers.

0nti wrote: Now if that is not being disrespectful, then teach me the meaning of that word.
And what said nade isn't "utter bullshit". It is true that a lot of great scientists end up in that conclusion, same as a lot of philosophers.

That wasn't really disrespectful, he was just stating facts. If anyone takes offense by facts, it's their problem. People seem to think that religion deserves some kind of special respect, more than other beliefs.

Yes, it was utter bullshit. He said "Every and i mean every scientist", which is just plain wrong. Most scientists do not end up with that conclusion, me being one of them even proved him wrong.

Imagine I said.
You are fucked up.
You are ridiculous.
It's sad you are a scientist.

Or maybe if you have wife and kids.

Your wife is fucked up.
Your kids are ridiculous.
It's sad you are married.

I dunno if you are married, have kids, or whatever, I didn't mean any of those thing. I was just giving an example....
IMO, if someone said that to me, I would feel offended.
And don't say he is "stating facts". He "believes" that is a fact, while I "believe" it isn't. Hopefully in the end we will find out who is right uh?

People seem to think that religion deserves some kind of special respect

In this case it has nothing to do with religion itself. But my beliefs and opinion.
Lets for instance change the topic. Another controvertial one....uhmm... abortion.
Imagine I said I was against, and someone said. "What? dude you are fucked up. You are against? That's ridiculous....It's really sad that you think like that".
I would still be offended.

What i said was ment with the connection to time. Youll need some more decades then

Sorry, your analogy doesn't hold up. If you knew something about what's in the bible you would know that the God depicted therein is fucked up, no doubt about it. You claiming that my kids are ridiculous would be pure conjecture on the other hand.

And if you want to change it into religious beliefs, well I don't think they deserve much respect since there is nothing to back them up but just that, belief. Opinions about abortion, however, I hope are based on more than just beliefs.

I'm done showing people who believe in God more respect than someone believing in fairies or Santa Claus. Especially since many religious ppl seem to think it is up to me as an atheist to disprove God's existence rather than up to them to prove it. I'm sorry, but my patience with all things God has run out.

Cmon people gimme a big HHHOOOOZZZZFFRRAAAABBBAAAAA. And breathe, IIIINNNNNN and OOOOUUUTTTT. Thats right, now juts continue some deep breathing while you rerad this post, lets lower our blood preasures a littel shall we? This is a tough subject to get through without harsh words, I know, its the very nature of this debate to get a little hot under the collar. We are talking about beliefs, lets not forget this, things near and dear to what makes people....them. A delicate subject to say the least, but please if we're going to have this debate lets have it for the sake of sharing ideas not proving someone else wrong or anything of the sort. Even if one does not agree with a decenting opinion, striving to understand it regardless of that fact is the only way to broaden your understanding of the subject itself. So then it seems prudent for eveyone to consider...well everyone and when writing posts please do try to be civil, generalizations are going to happen, people will write things in haste, and concepts won't be fully thought through. This is a great discussion but if it starts to turn for the bad im having it locked asap. no more back and forth, your wrong im rirght, you contradicted yourself here here and here, chat log this chat log that...blah poopy gnar gnar. AKA-Not in my fucking hijacked thread! Sry BI I'm claimin it shes all mine. lol

nade maeggs wrote:I wasnt talking about life by coincidence but about the situation that made life possible which has nothing to do with natural selection.

Let's just say that the situation that gives rise to life is really improbable. But, how many planets can there be in the universe with similar conditions? Quite a few I'd imagine, so if you multiply the probability with the number of "experiments" the resulting figure might not be so improbable. In fact, even if only one of those planets gave rise to life, that place would be right here by definition since we are here discussing it, right?

Epoch wrote:AKA-Not in my fucking hijacked thread! Sry BI I'm claimin it shes all mine. lol

Sorry for the hi-jack, but the whole point is that it is not beliefs vs. beliefs, but a scientifically grounded opinion vs. superstition. It might sound blunt, but that's really what it all comes down to. The old view that you cannot touch what I believe simply is wrong. There is no reason science can't discuss God's existence.

Cmon people gimme a big HHHOOOOZZZZFFRRAAAABBBAAAAA. And breathe, IIIINNNNNN and OOOOUUUTTTT. Thats right, now juts continue some deep breathing while you rerad this post, lets lower our blood preasures a littel shall we? This is a tough subject to get through without harsh words, I know, its the very nature of this debate to get a little hot under the collar. We are talking about beliefs, lets not forget this, things near and dear to what makes people....them. A delicate subject to say the least, but please if we're going to have this debate lets have it for the sake of sharing ideas not proving someone else wrong or anything of the sort. Even if one does not agree with a decenting opinion, striving to understand it regardless of that fact is the only way to broaden your understanding of the subject itself. So then it seems prudent for eveyone to consider...well everyone and when writing posts please do try to be civil, generalizations are going to happen, people will write things in haste, and concepts won't be fully thought through. This is a great discussion but if it starts to turn for the bad im having it locked asap. no more back and forth, your wrong im rirght, you contradicted yourself here here and here, chat log this chat log that...blah poopy gnar gnar. AKA-Not in my fucking hijacked thread! Sry BI I'm claimin it shes all mine. lol

That's why... this subject is not to be speaken in a haste and all you said. And as I said before, I don't plan to BUMP this more (even though I somehow did), cuz no one will change the mind of anyone, and I highly DOUBT something good is gonna come from this disscusion.
So let's please all go back to BI's roflmao webpage
Anyone else has anything to say about da ceiling catz kreating dem worldz?

Cynips wrote:If you knew something about what's in the bible you would know that the God depicted therein is fucked up, no doubt about it.

Sry but you just stole your whole credibility with that one. Now i know that you know nothing about whats in the bible.

on topic:
i lol'd

Not yet Onty I need a little more mental stimulation.

Cynips wrote:Sorry for the hi-jack, but the whole point is that it is not beliefs vs. beliefs, but a scientifically grounded opinion vs. superstition.

Thats why these debates are so difficult, thats what you believe. Others believe that there "superstition" has grounds in fact, or does not need grounds in fact in order to be true. This debate doesn't function well on absolutes. Its true I was idealisticly hoping that we could a fun debate about some of the more profound philisophical questions and conundrums we as humans have been trying to answer since the beginning of time. to be entirely to cliche, The desination is not whats important, its the journey.

Cynips wrote:Let's just say that the situation that gives rise to life is really improbable. But, how many planets can there be in the universe with similar conditions? Quite a few I'd imagine

This certainly raises the probability of life anywhere in the universe. The universe is gigantic, it contains millions if not billions of galaxies, which can contain billions of stars, which makes for even more orbital bodies surrounding those stars. This leave us with many trilions of chances for life to occur, making the proability of it happening anywhere in the universe, nearly inevitable. I belive that that model alone is enough to rule out the idea that there HAD to be a greater being in the works. Not only does that explain how we are here, but it also says to me that we are most likely not the only ones pondering such ideas. It would seem to be highly improbable that we are the only cosmic variance able to percive our own existance. Is that the extent of what classifies something as having the condition we refer to as life? Being able to percieve ones existance? How can something BE prior to existance? What is nonexistance? Does it exist? Am I capable of percieving nonexistance?

Then once you add in the idea from quatum physics that we are everything and nothing, simultaneously, this whole idea of life, existance and nonexistance gets even more thoroughly complicated. I tired to explain this idea but I can't write coherently enough to have it make sense lol. This principle is very clearly illustrated in the movies, "What the Bleep Do We Know?" and "Down the Rabbit Hole." Both of thses movies do an amazing job of simplifying and explaining most of the really influencial principals from quantum mechanics and quantum physics. Extremely intriguing, and some of the scientists they interview are very interesting characters. "Down the Rabbit Hole" is the sequal to "What the Bleep Do We Know." I highly suggest these movies, extremely intriuging, and vastly informative. I have not looked at the world the same since I saw them lol.

Interesting discussion.

I am also a scientist, and I was brought up with in a very religious household. What I state here is meerly my point of view and not intended to incite a riot.

I do believe there is some "higher intellegence" that has guided things. While I do believe that natural selection occurs, I do not believe that humans evolved from apes. There still is no proof of the missing link. Seems to me that if humans did evolve from apes, we would have found at least one specimen somewhere that bridges that gap. To say that religion is a fabrication by people to explain the unexplainable because science couldnt do it I think is a bit of a disservice. Someone would have had to have one hell of an imagination in order to come up with the ENTIRE old testament. How do you explain the Shroud of Turin? Scientists have studied it, they can offer no scientific explaination for it. Also if you look at religion around the world, there are many commonalities among the different ones that goes beyond coincidence. I cant remember specific examples, but scientists have found evidence and explainations for things they could not explain in the bible itself, rather than the other way around (ie science explaining events in the bible). One of them had to do with errors in the calender if I remember correctly.

My issue with religion is that some factions (for lack of a better term) have used religion as a means to oppress others. The fault doesnt lie in the religion itself, but with the people who implement it that way. I take exception to modern religious leaders using religion as a means to garner money from their followers and then live extravagant lives. Not that they should live in destitution, but they shouldnt live in a home that rivals Bill Gates' mansion. Because of that I dont subscribe to any one particular religion or church and simply call myself a Christian that believes in the bible, and not subject myself to any particular faction's spin on it.

Well, I won't go into more debates here. Richard Dawkins does such a thorough job at that anyway. I'll just quote an idea from his book: We're all atheists in that I don't believe in any God while some of you don't believe in any but your personal favorite.

Damn have no time atm to read thrue everything will do that later. But i like this discussion or better sharing of views.

There is absollutly no reason wat so eva to live ur life by the bible.
Also, alot of teh crap in teh old testiment is just pure sicko shit, if u know the old testiment, and u dont know wat im refering to, ur mind is warped, i mean seriously, some of that crap makes no sense at all, one of the stories just sounds like an excuse to go round raping ppl...

....Anyways, it would have been better if religion was never even mentioned, philosophy, science and the discusion of theories and facts about the universe are no place for religion.

Emotion, teh greatest evil of all. And what preys on it?

Also, @ paradox, if u are curious about the bible and where it really came from, u should do some research on it, u would be surprised, i've heard alot of things, forgotton most, one thing i remember is that it was aparently written by the royal family (which i dont know) and didnt actually come into effect till like couple hundred years lata, though im not entirely sure on that one
Another thing about that point in time is all the other prophets that were suposedly around, seemed to have been a fad back then.

well....I guess it's not gonna stop
It seems it has changed to the right path now (serious disscusion, without any offense to what the other thinks, but stating what each one believes and giving their opinion).
As long as everything continues in a calmed way... I will enjoy reading each opinion ^^.

See now thats what I was going for, it can be REALLy interesting to see how people beliefs and ideas can meld and clash, to create new more comprehensive, enlightented ideas. Such is the beauty of friendly debate.

Hehehe your so right Pernicious, its just a big jumbled mess of ideas. But I disagree, and yet I also agree. (ill explain) Religion is a very pertinant consideration in this day and age when disussing, scientific theories and philosophical ideas, because I think you must realize to what extent that persons perceptions are guided by relgious beliefs. Granted any good scientist will try and remain as objective as possible for as long as possible, his ideas still will be effected to some extent by his beliefs, be them in religion or in logic. And yet I also agree that religion really muddies the waters when you are trying to make sense of the things we have been discussing. Having said that I think its safe to say that more and more people are coming to the same conclusion as our species matures. Now that we have science to answer our questions one of the only things still holding religions place in the world, is peoples need/desire/compulsion to have something which is greater than them. It is too far of a stretch for them to think what we experience could not have arisen from something so cold, logical, and devoid of mystic elements as probability. Thats why people love to gamble so much, we are a proverbial jackpot one could say.

I believe there is a higher being, yet I can't pinpoint which one. How can somebody do this with so many beliefs? There's too many religions to pick just one until I can completely believe in one (which I probably don't have enough faith for). I'll stay atheist.

I actually grew up in a pretty religious family too, but I don't think they actually believed in God. I just think they thought that they were suppose to. They had me to go a christian school from 2-6th grade. It doesn't even matter to anyone at that age about gods and whatnot. What's the point? I tried to "accept jesus into my heart." I asked for forgiveness for my sins and stuff and I never felt any different. I tried twice and nothing different. Well, I'm 17 now and I can decide for myself. There's people around me that are complete christians and they want me to accept jesus into my life. Well, if I tried twice and nothing changed, what's going be different this time. I do believe things happen for a reason and sometimes I do feel like someone is looking out for me. Now whether that is Jesus or not. I don't know.

I kinda agree with the bible being too big for someone to just write and sometimes it is pretty gruesome. I also can't believe if we are in 2008 bc, that after 2008 years the apocalypse still hasn't taken place.

In conclusion, I need good solid truth that this has happen. It's like telling someone to believe that there are aliens. They have 90132842 arms and 345983 legs and if you don't believe in them. You're going to hell. Yeah, sure, there are some facts that mean the bible is more true than that. But I'm not going to believe them because someone tells me to. It would be pretty scary though to live in Hell forever.

Nice post Paradox, thats the type of idea sharing I was trying to insight in this thread, thank you. I would like to comment on one of your remarks in particular. "Also if you look at religion around the world, there are many commonalities among the different ones that goes beyond coincidence." -Paradox I'm going to have to be a little vague because I don't rememeber some of the specifics, like which eastern religion the people I will be referring to practiced, or what tribe of native americans a certain belief comes from. There is a very eerie similarity between a very specific native indian beliefs and tibetan belief. Both of these people believed that if they did not meditate in specific locations around the globe that the balance of the earth would fall apart. Both sects seperated by thousands of miles of land and and water know that if their fellows of the other side falter, or if they themselves falter, there will be consepences that effect the world. One would think that these two groups of people would have to have comunicated to have wound such an intertwined and interdependant fate. The Cherokee indians also used a single blue bead to represent the earth...how did they know the planet looks like a blue ball from space? It looks mostly green, or brown from the surface. Though they believe that humans fell from the stars of a galaxy, so many it was on their cosmic journey that their ancestors was the earth from a far as a blue ball. Its things like those two examples that really make me wonder about the whole "we only use 10% of our brain" theory. Maybe we have somehow lost some extraordinary cognitive ability that our ancestors were able to tap into. Could it be that we have become so jaded, that we can no longer understand what is probable and possible? One question leads to another which leads to another which leads to an idea which need to be clarifieds, which once clarified leads to another question. I also love how these debates always end up being hopelessly cyclical, things you say in regards to a certain idea will most likely also pertain to a previously discussed idea. Its like a building proscess of expression, discussion and revision; leading to great undertsanding of things.

Yea, the sad part about religion is that most ppls minds have been warped, neural nets have been formed at an early age wen the kids brains havent even developed to any extent capable of pure reasoning and logic...yet. The human brain isnt really fully developed till your at the ripe age of like 25 or something, not to say ur not most the way there at 18, and it varies from person to person, but teaching religion to kids is extremly innapropriate....not to mention morally and logically ....how to say this....ummm, lets just say very bad judgement on the guardians part. A kid should atleast be like 18 b4 that crap is thrust/inflicted upon him/her, that way they actually have the ability to make the decision themselfs, however stupid that decision may be.

many religious ppl seem to think it is up to me as an atheist to disprove God's existence rather than up to them to prove it. I'm sorry, but my patience with all things God has run out.

It's not your job to prove it exists anyway, the burden of proof is on them. Otherwise, PROVE THAT THE MATRIX DOESNT EXIST! D: !1

btw, something useful:

THE QUESTION OF BELIEF IS BINARY
1. Theist- Holds a positive belief in a diety
2. Atheist- Does not

THE QUESTION OF KNOWLEDGE IS ALSO BINARY
1. Gnostic- Knows that there is/is not a god.
2. Agnostic- Does not know, or does not believe it is possible to know, if there is a god or gods.


AGNOSTICISM COMES IN MULTIPLE LEVELS
1. Weak Agnostic- Lacks knowledge of a god.
2. Strong Agnostic- Believes that it is impossible to know whether or not there is a god.

ATHEISM AND AGNOSTICISM ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
1. Knowledge and belief are independent.

THEREFORE YOU HAVE, WITH THESE TWO VARIABLES, THESE COMBINATIONS
1. Weak Agnostic Atheist- Lacks knowledge and belief in a god.
2. Strong Agnostic Atheist- Believes it is impossible to know there is a god, and lacks belief in that god.
3. Gnostic Atheist- Knows that there is no god and does not believe.
4. Weak Agnostic Theist- Lacks knowledge of a god, yet believes in a god on faith, without evidence.
5. Strong Agnostic Theist- Believes it is impossible to know whether or not there is a god, and believes that this god exists.
6. Gnostic Theist- Knows there is a god and believes.
7. Denying Atheist- Knows there is a god, yet does not believe.
8. Denying Theist- Knows there is no god, yet believes.

It's cool that you be hijacking muh thread straight up, yo.

You right dawg, I hijacked this shit straight up, no front'n here B!
Aight, good thing we cool, else I might have to busta cap! I'm a crazy noocka!
All in good fun All in good fun Allin good fun Allin good fun All in good fun Allin good fun All in good fun All in good fun All in good fun All in good fun All in good fun All in good fun

Nice, thats a great reference you put together seagull TY. Visual references always make things easier to undertsand.

As far as knowing which one of those I fall into...I have no idea. My out look on the whole thing is too convoluted.

Much (if not all) of the old testament is a history review of what happened. They arent telling you to live your life that way. And yes there were lots of deviants and bad people back then just like there are today.

Considering the bible existed well before the royal family. I find it hard to believe that it was written by the royal family.

The King James Version was the first version translated into the English Language I believe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible

I always figured the bible was written by some dude trippin on some hardcore shit for like a week. I could write some prophetic shit too if you locked me in a room with a pen a pad of paper and a vial of acid. Little joke, I know nothing about the history of the bible. Its really old, good enough for me lol.

I would rather call myself an Empirical Atheist than anything else. I believe what all the evidence is telling me.

So I thought the lolcat translation was funny. Putting all my beliefs aside because I don't want to discuss them, and/or spark more debate. So back on topic the lolcat literally in fact did make me lol.

Heh to bo on topic for a change, I loled pretty hard at lolcat. That picture they had with lolcat looking down on a galaxy or whatever that was, was frickin hilarious. I want that to be god, I giant kitty who looks down on us from a hole in the sheet rock on the ceiling of the universe.

Epoch wrote:Heh to bo on topic for a change, I loled pretty hard at lolcat. That picture they had with lolcat looking down on a galaxy or whatever that was, was frickin hilarious. I want that to be god, I giant kitty who looks down on us from a hole in the sheet rock on the ceiling of the universe.

Yeah I gotta be honest I looked at the picture and read about the first 3 sentences...I've given up on reading long items since I started college.

I clicked the link in the OP it might have well been in greek, i didn't understand a word of it.
They don't have to prove GOD exists religion is all about faith :roll:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_BRZoXjOmI

Yeah I gotta be honest I looked at the picture and read about the first 3 sentences...I've given up on reading long items since I started college.

hahaah me too. But those few lines I read....omg so funny >.<
I just can't stand laughing when I see stuff wrote in that way. liek dis lolz0rz

0nti wrote:

Yeah I gotta be honest I looked at the picture and read about the first 3 sentences...I've given up on reading long items since I started college.

hahaah me too. But those few lines I read....omg so funny >.<
I just can't stand laughing when I see stuff wrote in that way. liek dis lolz0rz

I love just messing with people all over the internetz. Oh hai thar! U want buttsecks yez?

I love just messing with people all over the internetz. Oh hai thar! U want buttsecks yez?

hahahhahah

"onsidering the bible existed well before the royal family. I find it hard to believe that it was written by the royal family."

Yea, like i said im not sure wat it is exactly about that, there is some substance there, i think i recall incorrectly. More research needed, but seeing how nothing is worth while about religious study i think ill just chill...lol

Yea I dont get too worked up about it either. I do believe that people have the right to worship however they wish (so long as it doesnt break any laws LOL!) and they have the right to be an atheist if they want. Too many arguements, broken frienships and wars have happened over religious differences. We can all be proud that we could have this discussion without it turning into a flame war.

That it was written by the royal family is not true what maybe could be right that they took influence into the translation to backup their authority. Stuff like if you dont do what we want you to you'll burn in hell... But this aint a problem anymore because the very most part of the urtext of the bible is well preserved and authenticated by scientists.

Paradox wrote:Too many arguements, broken frienships and wars have happened over religious differences.

I was never formally introduced to any religion so I was lucky enough to be able to form my own opinions. This trend that you mentioned played a huge part in shaping my ideas on religion. Granted I do see the huge amounts of good that have come from religion, but the whole idea is just too complicated and intangible for people to ever agree on anything. Basically ive always thought humans waste and have wasted far too much time, resources, and lives for the sake of perpetuating religion. Woo im burnt out on this, my brain is fried from thinking so hard about intangibles, bravo for keeping this thread positive, some very interesting ideas were put forth. Doesn't everyone feel just a little bit smarter now? lol

I agree with you if you say religion is crap. The religions you see today are that what the leaders of each made it to over years and centuries. Every leader just saw the power and the advantage they could get and changed the rules to get even more. I for myself belief in the bible and that its gods word. Now if you study it and see the huge difference to the Religions today which say they live after the bible youll be shocked.
For instance paganistic usages are spread all over the religions. Stuff like trinity, eastern, xmas, hell, a livin on soul, using pictures or effigies for worship, all this stuff emanates from paganistic.
And nothing of that is founded in the bible.
If you want i can give you proof for all this. Now if you think thrue that what do you get as result? Religion is very fucked up. And christianity is far away from what it was supposed to be.

yea nade, those are some of the reasons I dont adhere to what I call a specific "faction" of religion, but choose to say that I am a christian and believe in God and the Bible and I try to live my life as an honest person. One of the ten commandments is not to worship graven images, so kind of makes you wonder huh? My family once attended a Pentacostal church which had its own rules (none of which are in the bible) for its congregation: no TV, radio (guess they thought it was a graven image?), no smoking, women couldnt wear pants or cut their hair short and some other off the wall things. My mother told the pastor that Jesus Christ never wore pants and that when the pastor started to wear a dress all the time then she would. ROFL. Needless to say, we werent members of that congregation long.

nade maeggs wrote:the very most part of the urtext of the bible is well preserved and authenticated by scientists.

I guess not many people watch the discovery channel, this is very true. There is a huge amount of proof that it is, as it was written,and there are people who have spent their entire lives uncovering that proof. There is no question scientific or otherwise that Jesus Christ existed and the events described in the bible are true. It's not just about faith and religion, it's can also be called verifiable history.

To each their own.

The anti smoking rule and the rule to not be allowed to cut the hair short for women are in the bible (there is one text that says you should keep your mind and body clean and another where it says men shouldnt wear long hair and women shouldnt wear short hair). Only in the old testament tho. But these rules where only for jews untill jesus replaced the old jewish legislation. But its not wrong to abide to these rules. (The pants, tv, radio stuff is crap)

lol l2k, u must be watching those pro-christianity doccos cause of all the docos i have seen it has been the oposite, they can maybe sorta prove that there may have been a guy named jesus but nothing much else but tall tales.
Theres is nothing certain about the bible, eccept that someone wrote it and it did exist at one point in time and there may have been others who "documented" similar shit. And thats not saying its all tru.
In the end though, to trust in something so old is pointless, not to mention, the questions that arise wen u ponder if said god was the only god and wat its motives were, there were alot of prophets at that time maybe they all really exist
Could prolly write an essay on why following a written document on how to llive your life and how to think is misguided(even it it is true), but ppl who beleive in that shit are generally stuck.

One thing i have to add, just cause its funny, the only christian(old test) where i work, just so hapens to be the dumbest person, where i work, and wen i say dumb, i mean, everyone thinks shes a cunt hair away from being retarded, man......dumb...Shes one of those ones, who wen u talk to about religion can only refer to the bible, cause thats all she knows, like she beleives anything if its in teh bible, proving the bible does not matter to her, i told her "u cant use the bible to prove itself" but she didnt get it =\ Theres more to that story but the point is, arguing about religion with religious nuts is pointless as they are too far gone, especially if they have been religious froma young age, refer to my recent post about the development of the brain in children..

Golly, 5:30am, im getting a little stupid asdlkjfbjhbakjsdhbfjhabsdhfvb
falabala.

lol pern well iam not one of the religious nuts iam allways open to constructive criticism.

Pernicious wrote:Could prolly write an essay on why following a written document on how to llive your life and how to think is misguided(even it it is true), but ppl who beleive in that shit are generally stuck.

It doesnt say this anywhere it only says that you should live your life after it and why? Because its good for you. At this point i dont mean the religious fanatics who just missinterpret or missunderstand by intention to support their position. The most part of the basic law of your country is funded in the bible. You cant say that its missguided to dont kill ppl its not missguided to dont steal. All the commandments written in the bible dont do any harm to others and are good all around.

Sorry, I don't mean to be rude or anything, but the bible as a moral guide simply doesn't work. For starters, there's nothing to say that some parts of the bible are more important than others. Even the commandment about not killing only really refers to not killing other jews - killing heathens are ok. The bible must be the worlds most overrated book, all categories.

Well for those that do believe and those that choose not to believe....Happy Easter!!!

Im going to eat dinner.....ttyl.

If any religious holiday is celebrated with any of the following consider me devout for a day.

Gifts
Large amounts of tasty food
Candy
Money (when given to me)
Shamanistic drugs

Are there any religious holidays that are celebrated through sex or orgies? Cause if so that makes the list too

Umm, if u look at how complicated our law systems are, u can say at the very best that religion was maybe a stepping stone, but thats old hat, morality without religion is much sweeter. And u have to realise that societies came b4 religion, monkeys, herds of wild beasty animals, dolphins, all have their own socieites, as did humans in their early evolutionary stages, and as humans evolved so did their societies.
Now, lets get to something inportant here, somehting i really hate about religion, RELIGION IS SLOWING DOWN OUR PROGRESS! Take stemcell research for ex, it doesnt even make any sense to opose it, it does not in any way harm anyone or thing..
I would say right now, our society is struggling to move forward philisophically, and not even mainly because of religion, u just have to look at how small minded the average person is, beleiving everything they read in the news or see on television, obsessing over celebrities, crappy music thats lasts no longer then a peice of chewing gum, etc
You have to ask yourself the question, if highly evolved aliens came to earth, wat would they think of us and our cultures/societies? Quite simply they would think us to be pathetic and would either wipe us out or get away from us and hope that eventually we DO evolve

The issue on stem cell research really isnt a religious arguement IMO, but rather one on when you believe life starts or when an embryo can be considered a human: ie at conception or sometime afterwards.

Religious people just tend to be on one side of that arguement.

Well, i have a really good argument for that life issue an all but its all irrelevant as the cells can be taken without damage.
They have no argument, its just pure stupidity.

I always saw "public religions" as some kind of real life cheat.

It's a good and a bad thing really, if you make people believe in stuff, and then you claim to be a part of it to become some kind of leader, it's awful.

But some other guy will have to jump over a gap and instead of dying from the inncoming wave of lava chasing him (rofl) he'll be like " OHSHIT IM AFRAID I CANTJUMP" then he's like, "NO,GOD'S WITH ME AND MAKES ME STRONGER!" and he ends up pulling out his ump, saving his life.

It's just another way to boost yourself. A reason to live.

I've got a problem with the fact the one that is NOT considering this as some kind of self-help trick that works for HIM, but a way that everyone MUST take.

Mr.Christian: JESUS IS TEH KEY TO ETERNITY, EMBRACE THE LORD'S SON!
Mr.Random: I respect all religions and beliefs, however ...
Mr.Christian: I pity the fool who does not accept god in his heart!!!!! We shall try to indoctrin...
Mr.Random: Folowing your logic, wouldnt it be your god's job to punish me after my miserable life on the wrong road? Is it really YOUR job to..
Mr.Christian: YOU SHALL BURNNERSARFU [insert burning witch video here]

While i dont automatically disrespect religious people, what cynips says about it being similar to believing in faeries or santa is pretty much true, and accordingly im always at least a bit suspect of anyone who still has an imaginary friend/enemy once their age hits double digits.

Regarding the missing link- this is true, theres zero proof we evolved from apes, and a transition species has yet to be found either alive or in fossil form (and at this point, its pretty likely that such a thing never will be found). Going even further, theres the problem of the big bang theory, or rather, what existed before it and/or what caused it in the first place. However, the sane answer to this question isnt to react in fear/ego and dream up some sort of cosmic bang-maker or whatnot, its to react in humility/wisdom, accepting that theres a great deal more research to be done on the subject and that we simply dont have the answer yet.

Life itself is also a problem question, as while its easy to see its origins in some ways, weve made zero progress in figuring out why it originates, or what its purpose is. Since its probably safe to assume the purpose isnt just to madly move various bits of matter from place to place until the life dies again, its likely that we have plenty more research to do here as well- which likely also ties in with whatever spawned the big bang, though of course thats not a guarantee either.

Lastly, the bible could have easily been dreamed up by someone with a fervid imagination. The chronicles of thomas covenant, buried for a millenia and dug up by fearful people of great ignorance and questionable judgement, could easily be taken as a bible- history of the promised land, fated battles of good vs evil, the trials of the savior etc. They might even have "heretics" that question whether or not it was just a product of someones imagination, and the heretics would be right: stephen r donaldson has a fine imagination, and doesnt much resemble god so much as he does a successful author. He manages alot more cohesion and clarity than the bible as well, and a much better background- the creator is better than god, lord foul is badder than satan and andelain is utopia to the garden of edens vegetable patch.

Basically, splicing bits of reality into a fantasia doesnt make the bible any more than exactly that: a fantasy novel loosely based on historical events. And in that respect, the covenant chronicles have the bible flat out beat.

Stephen R Donaldson 1, God 0.

Whoa, I read those six volumes, but it's like 20 years ago now!

BTW, there's much more than zero proof that we evolved from apes. Or rather, that we are a kind of ape. Don't forget that all the other great apes have evolved just as long as we have. We only like to think we are so special. It's not like the other apes stopped and we continued on with them as direct ancestors. Since we took different roads along the evolutionary pathway, we've certainly added on a bunch of more striking features than they have. And although the fossil record is kinda scarce, there's plenty of both morphological and molecular evidence speaking for our shared recent ancestry.

You are the ones that hold information millions of years old in your skulls, all the bible is good for is getting really high and reading out of it (Mormon prefered), it's pure comedy anymore, After actually reading how screwed up it is, not to mention the constant stealing of cultures and translating and changing to fit the times new laws, It's got me mad.. I can't see how it isn't illegal nowadays.. God has been the leading cause of death for thousands of years now (carlin?), regardless it's true. We are made of flesh and bones, just because we're domesticated doesn't mean we're cute.

Jesus Christ to me is just stolen mythology that closely relates to sun worship. (I'm just throwing out my opinion, even if no one wants it xD and I havn't read the whole thread, I'm on it though..)

Cynips there's actually a study in 'Chromosome 2' that pretty much proves that we've decended from a common ancestor, 'evolution', (even though the proof is in logic imo)


WIKI--

Chromosome 2 is widely accepted to be a result of an end-to-end fusion of two ancestral chromosomes. [2][3] The evidence for this includes:

The correspondence of chromosome 2 to two ape chromosomes. The closest human relative, the chimpanzee, has near-identical DNA sequences to human chromosome 2, but they are found in two separate chromosomes. The same is true of the more distant gorilla and orangutan.

The presence of a vestigial centromere. Normally a chromosome has just one centromere, but in chromosome 2 we see remnants of a second. [6]

The presence of vestigial telomeres. These are normally found only at the ends of a chromosome, but in chromosome 2 we see additional telomere sequences in the middle.

Chromosome 2 is thus strong evidence in favour of the common descent of humans and other apes. According to researcher J. W. IJdo:[7]

We conclude that the locus cloned in cosmids c8.1 and c29B is the relic of an ancient telomere-telomere fusion and marks the point at which two ancestral ape chromosomes fused to give rise to human chromosome

K sorry everyone, I just believe that we can reach civilization without lies and need for social control (read bibles history..).

That whole evolutionary thing is very complicated, i think theres more then zero proof. One important question, if we didnt evolve from some kind of ape which evolved from something which evolved from a fish that crawled out of the sea which evolved from something which evolved from a single celled organism (excuse my simplistic example) then where the hell did we come from, like, modern day humans didnt just pop out of thin air, theres allways the theories about alien ancestors and being engineered an so on but even that would raise more questions if u took it seriously ^_^

Yeah man, we're so much further from seeing what actually happened back then.. I mean everyone has this idea that earth is our house and it's safe and we're very 'indoor' when really second by passing second we're IN SPACE, just miles away from chaos and threats to all life, the illusion of safety, gotta love it.

One thing is for certain though, if an alien race (yes even the possible 'creators' that dropped us off on this planet because they saw it was inhabitable) came here and looked around, saw that we're still at war, separated because of colors or language, they would totally disapprove of our behaviour as 'civilized' 'humans', we're this complex yet this much a unified FAIL.

Coke. wrote:Cynips there's actually a study in 'Chromosome 2' that pretty much proves that we've decended from a common ancestor, 'evolution', (even though the proof is in logic imo)

Yeah, I remembered that when I read it. It's what I would call molecular morphology - the shape and form of the genetic moelcules so to speak. And although it is no logical proof, as empirical evidence you cannot find much more convincing stuff.

Trust me, I know, since my profession is just that, systematic biologist.

epic thread.
12 years of catholic education for the confusing lose.

Epoch wrote:I always figured the bible was written by some dude trippin on some hardcore shit for like a week. I could write some prophetic shit too if you locked me in a room with a pen a pad of paper and a vial of acid.

Dude there are alot of old festivals and celebrations dedicated to drugs, something I would consider researching is psilocybin mushrooms, it's mentioned all throughout history as being 'godly', 'divine', groups would do it for healing/knowledge, etc.

I recall reading about 'moses and the burning bush' as being Moses actually taking shrooms on the top of this mountain, call it crazy, but is it any more crazy than the story itself



Who wants to take this thread further than religion? Our brains have become complex enough to leave our senses behind and imagine/experience new worlds where the impossible can be questioned for as long as we're conscious, and yeah I believe drugs had a major influence on most of the accepted beliefs now, take a look at everything without moral.. It's just an addition of chemicals Religion forgets that humans created the words that humans use to 'speak the word of god with', ehm, I really need to get out of this thread.

Cynips wrote:Trust me, I know, since my profession is just that, systematic biologist.

I'm only trusting you because you listen to Meshuggah

Coke. wrote:I'm only trusting you because you listen to Meshuggah

Good enough

wow i just spent over an hour writing a post for this, and the shitty connection at work lost my connection to the forum, so I had to log in again. Losing the whole damke post, cause I tried to post it wasn't logged in when I tried and now the post is gone ARG!! RAWR FUCK! I hate that shit!! wtf I was soo fucking long RAWR laudsfglisadfbsaidb;lfj ns;df poop

Edit: I read this a day later and laughed. Ah yes the trials and tribulations of an extremely bored customer service associate. *sigh* Please phone, ring for me.

Do it in word pad then copy paste. Safest way.

Wow, an hour, like wtf, i spend like 2-5 minutes tops, were u writing a fucking feature article or something?

Nah wasn't a screen play or anything, it was long, but most of it was editing. *sigh* I just kept wrestling with this idea in my head and wrote a bunch then deleted a bunch wrote a bunch more, you know how it goes sometimes, its like your arguing with yourself. And I was at work, so I had nothing better to do. Meh, after a nice big Hoozfrabaa I was all good lol. I can't rememebr what movie I saw that in but it really works. If you ever get pissed off or stressed just let out a big'ol "Hoozfrabaa" with a deep breath and you will feel better, at least I always do lol.

hmmmm i can recall that actually, but like u i cannot pull the name of teh movie/tv series it came from.
The mind is like a vast library, its a bitch to sort through.

DING! I think i remember, unless my mind is playing trixsies on me, the movie Anger Management with Jack Nicholson and Adam Sandlers. i love the brain its so mysterious, scientists may have an undertsanding of how it works "mechanically" but they still have no idea how to define the mind. How is this big mass of organic electrical circuitry allowing us to be aware of this phenomina we call life?

Epoch wrote:How is this big mass of organic electrical circuitry allowing us to be aware of this phenomina we call life?

Life, like death, is just another illusory belief, the mind does not know life or death, but it knows how to prepare for the future, I wish I could say the same for humans as one

It has to do with the language we use, I mean you say you're alive only because you are able to, and who's to say that every non-living thing isn't 'living' ? Go down to the atomic scale and see 'life' in action, isn't it just a bunch of 'non-life' connecting charges like magnets?

And who's to say we aren't a big giant experiment formed by a bigger organization?

badinfluence wrote:And who's to say we aren't a big giant experiment formed by a bigger organization?

I am. LOL!!

No you're right though But the only reason I'm not believing that is because, how much bigger can you get? We know the size of all building blocks, and we don't see 'HUGE' elementary particles.. So it kind of shuts the door on that whole 'we're on a world which is around a sun, which is around a galaxy, which is in the universe, which is on the hood of someone's car in some much bigger place.'

No but we have alot of information (imo) that states that we aren't a part of a big experiment, still though, a part of me WANT's us to be, it's a fun thought

In alot of ways we ARE a huge experiment, the identity of 'organization' and everything else is relative

@ Badinfluence You remember the ending of Men in Black? When the aliens are playing marbles and our entire universe is contained on just one marble of his collection. Thinking about that idea really help to open my mind to the idea that we are incapable of completely understanding the nature of our existance. Which is good because it leaves a little bit of wonder in this jaded world.

@ Coke Some native americans believe that all things have a spirit passing through them. So essentially all things are alive and experiencing their existance in one way or another. Humans were on the same level as rocks and trees and animals as far as they were concerned. Part of the same spirit that runs through the stream, the rock, and the tree run through you aswell, making us all conected and essentially bound to the same fate. Hence their extreme stewardship towards nature, they were as much a part of the cycle as the sun and the animals.

It seems to me that there must be something else outside of our universe. Scientists put a boundary on our universe, so am I to believe that there is a physical limit to our existance? Can I bang on the edge like a pice of glass? I mean can you really wrap your mindaround what nonexistance would look like? Is there just a huge white/black void beyond our universe with absolutely nothing in it. What would absolutely nothing look like? Have you ever seen absolutely nothing? Can absolutely nothing exist? <--- oxymoron but the heart of the question is intruiging and worth considering. Wrap your mind around those questions and tell me that lump of flesh between your ears doesn't feel stimulated.

I couldn't imagine the universe having a 'membrane' or 'barrier', simply because it is expanding, I can't imagine a 'basketball' expanding without ripping it's own membrane apart until there were gaps and leaks, and still hold everything inside, but who knows.. I'd imagine it to be like our atmosphere, we can leave it, takes alot of force, but once you're on the other side, things get weeirrdd and sppaaccyy (and you thought space was weird and spacey?).. But it's such a fun thought.. If the universe is exanding, where is it going? Multiverse? Billions of 'bubbles' each containing a bit of matter? Nothing at all? Purgatory? Also I wouldn't think that it would be very 'white', unless there were light sources around (implying that atoms and fusion exist outside of our universe)

I think non-existance exists (bahaha) when you subtract consciousness, you're only able to ask the questions that you want to ask because you are conscious.

Although I do like native cultures and beliefs, I was talking what we know now, atoms are in a constant state of flux, always trying to become as stable as they can, I consider this 'living'.

Well there is that whole multiverse theory which says that wen one collides with another u get a big bang effect, which means the big bang experienced in this universe was niether the first or last, which would be a pretty shit, tehre wont be any highly intelligent species surviving that unless they evolve at an exemplory rate, but hell, maybe thats the test, wen a species good enough to survive the big bangcomes along, they will be rewarded with the knowledge of their purpose.

As for that organizational shit, we have allready established in this thread that that idea only raises more questions then it answers, who created the creator and how the fuck does that all start exactly, etc, now in a universe so complex having one guy that created us specifically would not even answer our question at all, even if the little shit came out in a divine kind of way an told us itself. Unless it explained further then the story of our creation.

Cynips wrote:Whoa, I read those six volumes, but it's like 20 years ago now!

He recently returned to them, and he hasnt lost his touch.

Volumes 7-8 are in print, 9-10 forthcoming over the next two years.

Cannot believe that internet's existence is all about cats in 2008.

THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING MAN! It's one huge subconscious cat fetish.

The Cats PWN teh Internetz