Why Isn't HL2DM As "Pro" As CSS?

Like look around, theres all these CS competitions and stuff. Its crazy. I think Half Life has the potential to be more entertaining and bigger. Why isn't it as popular. Someone sponcer Onti and get us a huge league or something. Unless i'm blind and there are pro DM's going on everywhere.

Bugs. A lack of consistent play. Advanced physics. Advanced Movement. Learning curves. Interest. Support.

The game is way ahead of its time.

Bugs. A lack of consistent play. Advanced physics. Advanced Movement. Learning curves. Interest. Support.

The game is way ahead of its time.

Iam glad someone agrees. The advanced and detailed physics make it great! CSS can't enjoy that? The detailed movements are all so pro. So much more variety in DM. Your right most people can't handle it...

Its funny I just recently went to a vid game show where I watched a CSS final. All I could say is "Why the hell didnt DM get like this? Why is CSS so much more popular?" They even broadcast the matches over the internet its. It was amazing all the support that went into just running the damn tourney and making sure they were being broadcast.

I also think watching a DM competition is much more interesting. It is unfortunate, but ya I think that this game as so much to offer that it killed itself because most people dont have the perseverance to get through it.

i think css is so popular because of 1.6 and how many peopled moved from one game to the other.

I think if there was a DM2, where the movement was more like Painkiller (Faster in general), without contortionist key combos to bunnyhop, more folks would be interested in the game. I think that is why the DM is so stratified. Noobs get owned and it takes a special someone to dig deeper into the strafe jump/hop. There are Low grav/snipe/heavy grav and there is a few pubs and locked servers with the better players.

Its all academic at this point.
The game will die or there is something else in store. Who knows?

CS bites! I can't imagine spending any time dl'ing CS videos and match highlights. Boring!
Not even close to Gatman/Game Over/Unwonted.

css needs to die, for the sake of all gamers, even the ones who play it.
They wont know whats out there until they are forced to look, and beleive me they need to be forced, these css kiddies seem to start young, and seems to be the only game ever bother with after that, half the time.
I can only play the fuckin game for like 2 minutes b4 i get bored an shitty with it, so fucking slow, and then u have retards flashing, and it also surprises me that, for some reason, most of them dont know that if u turn away from a flash it wont effect u or not very much.
I'll say this too, for a game thats suposed to be about aim, with all the shitty tactics involved, and the flashing, an spamming bullets because of the weapon spray(the pros control their spam aparently, i'd rather go straight for the head)...theres not much aim involved. Its shit to watch, the frag vids are shit to watch, and its not FUCKING...........REALILSTIC!

A few reasons:

First, valve doesnt support the game, and never really did. Can you really see having quakecon style $$$$$ tournaments with a game where the players all crash 1 out of 2 matches? Neverminding all the lesser bugs, some of which can be pretty broken themselves.

Second, the player base is as divided as a player base can be. You look at cs/css/quake etc, the competitive players have a general agreement on what maps will be played, what format will be used, and they dont whine and cry over [insert tactic(s) here]. Also, the quakes have player-developed competition mods, something this game still lacks after 4 years.

What do we have here? Half the competitive players addicted to either the games initial single player converted map, old unfixed hldm remakes or random crap they have fond memories of from the games launch season, none of which would hold up at a 5-figure prize level of play. Couple that with a load of silly mods meant for quasi-hldm/noob/coop/puzzle/build/roleplay formats, and the fact that what non modded servers remain are running any of 100 different gravity, friction etc settings- and random killboxes for maps, generally- and you have a situation where getting into this game competitively is about as smooth and painless a process as pulling teeth with a nutcracker.

Not that this couldnt all change, with either valve making a sudden return to actively supporting the game, valve locking out all the gimpy settings so we were all in the same playing field no matter what server we joined, or someone(s) within the community creating a true pro mod for the game, but unfortunately at this point itd take a near blind level of optimism to truly expect any of the above to happen.

CSS is in a way much more popular an easy to play.

Plus it is "realistic" (yeah I often get that answer from many CS players when asked)

yeah, cookie for WT.

hl2dm is the bitch of all Deathmatches. I think the insane hard way to move doesnt help. In EVERYYYYYY deathmatch games with advanced movement (unreal, quake, warsow, cube ...)
if you press jump in midair, you'll jump upon landing, wich allow people to focus on the game and not being an octopus all over the keyboard. It is NOT official that there is advanced movement, so no matter what people will accuse you of using cheat and if you say hl2dm-university.com ,they go and comeback to say "cheat website" like wtf for god's sake.

And yeah, the 345 ways to play the game (dune buggys on race maps, roleplay, coop, zombies, sniper, insta death) with tons of SHIIIIIIIIT map because alot of people in there doesnt even seem to know what CAL is (and when they go on calleague.com... they say its cheat website )

There's no re-review anywhere, even after the FIOS, most major review website dont even have it listed.

Now it's a free game, no one hears about it, and for a deathmatch free game, if you want movements, you'll take warsow, for anything else DM wins.

actually ive got an idea D: dept of film.

I was not around when it was released but from what gather hl2dm was never advertise or was made to be a complete game on its own it was more of a thing on the side that was just throw in with half life 2. Being programmed by one guy pretty much sums up what valve thought of it I really do not think they took it seriously. If you look at counter strike yes it had a previous version to build on and a community but valve had a team working on it it was treated as a game by itself. With having a team the game had more direction and was more rounded it was very clear what the game was about.

I remember looking through game mags and coming across counterstike being mentioned it was getting recognised. Hl2dm had no focus it really did not have what the game was about made clear, all it had was throw a toilet at your friend as a slogan so it was made out to be a novelty and those things never last or do well over the long term.

Then you have players experience now when they enter the game and look at the server list what do they see well a sea of so many different servers with all sort of maps and settings like ok said. The game is too diluted and valve did not bring in any standardisation like make it clear to the user here are co-op server here is kill box etc like it is for most other games like tf2. So when players get into the game they are confused what the hell is this game about.

From my experience when I first launched the game I was like emm k and just join this random server which 8/10 is a bad one and your first impressions end up not being good. I really did not touch or launch the game after that for a compel of months it just by chance that I was had nothing else to play and found a server that I found enjoyable where I meet some m8s that introduce me to what the game is really about.

Then skill spectrum it is huge in this game which is a charm btw but from a new guy they join a server and get beaten up pretty badly nothing can prepare them for this games speed, skill and diversity of play except may be if they are a quake player. I swear if there was no CTF server for me to play on and use as a stepping stone into proper dm then I really would not be playing or be here typing this. So that it learn curb is steep that from the bottom there is not much for a new player to grab onto and better then self’s to really enjoy the game.

So in summary.

Css has grown due to:
Support from valve, Has direction, marketed as its own, shallow learning curb, standards for game play and settings, community support.

Hl2dm lack of growth is due to:
lack of or no existent support from valve, was not built by a team but by one guy = buggy, not treated as a game on it own, No direction, marketed as novelty, No standards for game play or settings, diluted game play types, community that causes self inflicted wounds to it self

But what does hl2dm have that is good when discovered:
fast, unpredictable, different ways to play, nose bleed level of skill that can be achived, tricks, movement, physics, team work, simply messing around
simply it is the most fast paced and enjoyable game that you can play which has the wow factor how many people have seen a hl2dm frag movie and are simply blown away by the kills just look on source radio comments but also look at css vids you notice that they speed up the action to try and make it look good whereas game over did not have crazy effects but simply shown the pure skill and enjoyment of the game. There is hope.
Damn I just did a case study.

CS is the same the fire fights happen in the exact same places everytime. CS:S heads must be huge because I get headshot when I swear was aiming for the chest many a time. The enemy is only going to come from one direction, they are never going to sneak up behind you in CS.

Play HLDM its way more fast paced. Some peopel say COD4 is fast pace

Deathmatch is good but I am starting to get bored of it, probably due playing PS3 more and more, my steam account last time i checked said I played 5.3 hours of DM recently, but 6 months ago it would be more like 40+ hours.


The nearest comp mod is dmpro but everyone complains it doesn't feel thee same.

Well, the original release of HL2 came with CSS, so that tells you how much DM was planned and how much Valve would support it.
Its almost a Bootleg.
Valve only added it because it was more related to HL2 AND still gave you CS lol.
DM is the red headed step child of gaming and i mean no disrespect to red heads.

The skill ceiling is so high.

On another point, I think most of the players here on the U aren't even playing. I open up my friends list which would have been filled before with people playing. Now there is nobody. I only join my friend's games. Pubs are so boring. I see everyone playing tf2 or l4d now.

CSS was based and developed by a team of programmers that was external to VALVe. They’ve made the game as an independent mod, perfected it and presented to VALVe. Which in turn, finalized and released as an official mod.

Get the idea? Need more proof of how things work?

Same happened with Portal and L4D and many other independent mods.

So...if a group of high-level programmers, art designers and level designers sits down and work on this lovely idea called DM2 and present it to VAVLe even in early alpha stages there is a very good chance it will become an officially supported mod.

An aside,...the market IS INDEED moving more and more towards co-op style and that is an undisputed fact. Keep that in mind when thinking of a DM2.
Having said that...I think it's very true that if you want new people to be exposed to the advanced movement this game has to offer (and STAY) then you have to take off the hassle and let it work like in Warsow / Quake and the like. The game still has an enormous appeal and I believe even though it cannot be as popular as CSS it can indeed get tenfold more audience than it currently has.

Any Game HAS to have an instant pay-off system for newcommers and kids to latch on to and for it to develop a regular-base. HL2DM current does not.


val

http://forums.epicgames.com/showthread. ... st25805308
http://forums.epicgames.com/showthread. ... st25805384

I posted this on UT3 forums, similar posts will be posted on other deathmatch games forum, now that it's free i think i can get more ppl to play this, badinfluence, add me i play often.

thefinalconflict

Alright, I will. I thought you sold your account though?

My steam account is:

bad_influence06

Im always about to sell my account but some magic money drops from the sky and i can pay visa, school and everything so i end up keeping it haha

The skill ceiling is so high.

On another point, I think most of the players here on the U aren't even playing. I open up my friends list which would have been filled before with people playing. Now there is nobody. I only join my friend's games. Pubs are so boring. I see everyone playing tf2 or l4d now.

<- will be the last one playing this game...

<- will be the last one playing this game...

on rp_lego_nudeclara_buildbox_r4

Im always about to sell my account but some magic money drops from the sky and i can pay visa, school and everything so i end up keeping it haha

Damn, magic mullah!!! How do you manage that?

"yeah, cookie for WT."
Very nice point. Whatever happens, WT will be a big factor and he is a WINNER!

On another point, I think most of the players here on the U aren't even playing. I open up my friends list which would have been filled before with people playing. Now there is nobody. I only join my friend's games. Pubs are so boring. I see everyone playing tf2 or l4d now.

me being one of them. I'm moving to tf2, and enjoying css from time to time.
I have only 2 low ping servers to play at now (in this case low ping means 120 -.-). Both give 60 choke, and have shitty maps. Apart from that, I got tired of people adding me to steam just to 1v1 me, thinking they are the shit and trying to beat me to later brag about it. I mean, come on it makes no sense playing a 1v1 with 300 ping, stop asking! (that goes mainly to euros...)
I do play ocassionally ... but that's like a pub or two, or a 1v1 with dark soul every 2 weeks lol.

And oh well, on topic, the reasons have pretty much been said all ...

On another point, I think most of the players here on the U aren't even playing. I open up my friends list which would have been filled before with people playing. Now there is nobody. I only join my friend's games. Pubs are so boring. I see everyone playing tf2 or l4d now.

me being one of them. I'm moving to tf2, and enjoying css from time to time.
I have only 2 low ping servers to play at now (in this case low ping means 120 -.-). Both give 60 choke, and have shitty maps. Apart from that, I got tired of people adding me to steam just to 1v1 me, thinking they are the shit and trying to beat me to later brag about it. I mean, come on it makes no sense playing a 1v1 with 300 ping, stop asking! (that goes mainly to euros...)
I do play ocassionally ... but that's like a pub or two, or a 1v1 with dark soul every 2 weeks lol.

And oh well, on topic, the reasons have pretty much been said all ...

Yeah, I'm one of them too. I'm starting to play tf2 more even though it's such a horrid game. The people that do play are playing scrims in locked servers. I'm not going to ask for the password then wait 20 minutes to play DM.

tf2-university ggogo

is tf2 awesome ?

http://forums.epicgames.com/showthread. ... st25805308
http://forums.epicgames.com/showthread. ... st25805384

I posted this on UT3 forums, similar posts will be posted on other deathmatch games forum, now that it's free i think i can get more ppl to play this, badinfluence, add me i play often.

thefinalconflict

Isn't UT3 deader than HL2DM?

is tf2 awesome ?

tf2 is mega awesome

TF2 is all right. I don't like it as much as DM because it doesn't have the physics, the weapon pickups (no map control), it's too linear like some people have mentioned about CS. I played Halo for a long time up until Halo 2, and I'll always be partial to games that are simply deathmatch, no BS added. When you're fighting someone in DM, you have to be ready for anything.. you don't know what they have. In TF2 they have 3 weapons: main weapon, pistol/shotgun, and melee. You know that the Pyro is going to shotgun you from afar and torch you up close. That's boring. Everyone moves at the same speed all the time. Also boring, imo.

A lot of folks have been talking about new players being scared away from DM because of all the advanced movement and additional skills needed like grav-nading, speed balling, etc. I for one was intrigued when I first started playing and got smoked time and time again by these crazy people who flew around the level. I've only been playing for a month and a half, but I can bunnyhop now, I can grav-nade like a pro, I can catch my orb coming right out of the AR-2. And you know what, it's really rewarding to see myself getting better. The high skill ceiling is why I love this game. I can always get a TON better.

All it really takes is a desire to get better, humility, and a positive attitude. DM has an amazing community; they are always willing to help and teach new players (at least in my experience.)



=Deathmatch Forever=

RAWR!

TF2 is all right. I don't like it as much as DM because it doesn't have the physics, the weapon pickups (no map control), it's too linear like some people have mentioned about CS. I played Halo for a long time up until Halo 2, and I'll always be partial to games that are simply deathmatch, no BS added. When you're fighting someone in DM, you have to be ready for anything.. you don't know what they have. In TF2 they have 3 weapons: main weapon, pistol/shotgun, and melee. You know that the Pyro is going to shotgun you from afar and torch you up close. That's boring. Everyone moves at the same speed all the time. Also boring, imo.

A lot of folks have been talking about new players being scared away from DM because of all the advanced movement and additional skills needed like grav-nading, speed balling, etc. I for one was intrigued when I first started playing and got smoked time and time again by these crazy people who flew around the level. I've only been playing for a month and a half, but I can bunnyhop now, I can grav-nade like a pro, I can catch my orb coming right out of the AR-2. And you know what, it's really rewarding to see myself getting better. The high skill ceiling is why I love this game. I can always get a TON better.

All it really takes is a desire to get better, humility, and a positive attitude. DM has an amazing community; they are always willing to help and teach new players (at least in my experience.)



=Deathmatch Forever=

RAWR!

I love this guy!

Yeah but I mean, in DM those little exploits are fun. Its like separating the noobs from the average to the pros. The complexity is what makes it fun. Its like theres always something to learn. I do agree CSS is pretty linear.

is tf2 awesome ?

tf2 is mega awesome

if you like playing pyro and stacking teams with all you clan buddies.plus the hit reg in tf2 is almost as bad as dods.

is tf2 awesome ?

tf2 is mega awesome

if you like playing pyro and stacking teams with all you clan buddies.plus the hit reg in tf2 is almost as bad as dods.

you my friend have not played competatively

http://forums.epicgames.com/showthread. ... st25805308
http://forums.epicgames.com/showthread. ... st25805384

I posted this on UT3 forums, similar posts will be posted on other deathmatch games forum, now that it's free i think i can get more ppl to play this, badinfluence, add me i play often.

Did your posts get deleted?

The skill ceiling is so high.

On another point, I think most of the players here on the U aren't even playing. I open up my friends list which would have been filled before with people playing. Now there is nobody. I only join my friend's games. Pubs are so boring. I see everyone playing tf2 or l4d now.

ADD "seanpyl". I play as InFeRnO.

I added you both.

http://forums.epicgames.com/showthread. ... st25805308
http://forums.epicgames.com/showthread. ... st25805384

I posted this on UT3 forums, similar posts will be posted on other deathmatch games forum, now that it's free i think i can get more ppl to play this, badinfluence, add me i play often.

Did your posts get deleted?

Seems so, the links go to a page that says the threads do not exist.

Oh and zman, WE will be the last 2 players playing. Maybe by that time I can beat you.

i still play allot.

proof --> http://steamcommunity.com/id/lbc

p.s. i suggest you don't click on the "facebook" link if you don't want to restart your browser.

I still play so I added everyone

The skill ceiling is so high.

On another point, I think most of the players here on the U aren't even playing. I open up my friends list which would have been filled before with people playing. Now there is nobody. I only join my friend's games. Pubs are so boring. I see everyone playing tf2 or l4d now.

ADD "seanpyl". I play as InFeRnO.

I played with you today on TSGK XXVII server for a little bit. I'll add you too, if you don't mind.

My adding name is yemyang, I play as =DMF= Merlyn. Feel free to add me, everyone. I have yet to begin my reign of DM terror.. I'll be around for a while.

Im always about to sell my account but some magic money drops from the sky and i can pay visa, school and everything so i end up keeping it haha

STOP SELLING DRUGS! (?)

is tf2 awesome ?

no it sucks ass

is tf2 awesome ?

no it sucks ass

lol 99% of the players in this game would say this because they most likely suck at tf2. why? because they don't understand how to play as a member of a team. in other words, if you try to go rambo in hl2dm (try to run into more than 1 player with a grenade or whatever), your odds of success aren't too terrible. in tf2, if you rambo against any half-way competent team, you're fuckin' dead and useless to your team.

being good at the two games requires different types of skills, that's all, and like i said, the vast vast majority of players in this game probably lack the necessary skills to be good at tf2 despite being good at half-life 2

being completely honest, though, i did have more fun playing hl2dm when it was at its height in popularity than i did with tf2, but that does not by any means suggest that tf2 is a bad game

i had to edit my post after i saw this to demonstrate my point:

the weapon pickups (no map control)

no map control in tf2? are you kidding me? have you ever even played a real tf2 match?

the whole damn game is about map control! dustbowl and gravelpit are all about map control in particular. the difference, again, is that people in tf2 need to stick to their assigned roles. this often means watching a particular part of the map and not ramboing in to try to kill people, because in tf2, whoever has the most points is not at all indicative of how important they are to their team. there is far more than just saying "oh hey we'll all stay in this general area around x weapon spawn". people need to actually utilize the structure of the map to their advantage and ensure that all choke points are accounted for. i could go on and on about what i learned from my good friend xaj about tf2 strategy, but that's the basics and to suggest that there is no map control in tf2 is crazy.

I am always playing dm and junk-http://steamcommunity.com/id/anthym

Like look around, theres all these CS competitions and stuff. Its crazy. I think Half Life has the potential to be more entertaining and bigger. Why isn't it as popular. Someone sponcer Onti and get us a huge league or something. Unless i'm blind and there are pro DM's going on everywhere.

The original Counter-strike was a MOD for half-life that became popular enough that valve decided to cash in on and develop as a stand alone game with a massive following. There was no "Half-life DM" game just the multiplayer option for HALF-LIFE and wasn't advertised. Half-life 2 DM was made and never touched again. CSS obviously got alot more attention and time put into it and is way more noob friendly than the tactics and moves involved in a game of deathmatch and it tends to scare people away because they have no clue wats even possible in the game let alone how to do them to stop people like myself. I think the U was created to increase awareness of HL2DM and train NEW players how to get up to PAR if they wanted to COMPETE. Its like the GAUS jumpers in the first one that shoot through walls at the spawn point and fly in the air and STAY up there killing everyone. I personally didnt want to be that fucking asshole up there expoiting everything about the game to dominate clueless people. Most people could give a shit less about competing and just want to kill people in a freindly game of DM and not learn the most advanced moves immediatly out of the bag. YOU will be lacking elsewhere without the real time and effort into becomming a good all around player.

to answer the topic though:

the biggest reason that cs is successful i think is because of its simplicity. people can watch others playing it and they see someone headshotting someone else through a scope and they can say to themselves, "wow that was impressive". hl2dm and other games like it are much more nuanced in how people can do things which we as experienced players can recognize as being impressive; someone in this game can headshot someone else with the 357 who is across the map and a random person watching the game might not immediately know what happened, or there are a million other things which the random person who isn't experienced with the particular game wouldn't immediately recognize as being impressive. but people who are not hardcore gamers can watch a cs match and be awed by what they see.

to answer the topic though:

the biggest reason that cs is successful i think is because of its simplicity. people can watch others playing it and they see someone headshotting someone else through a scope and they can say to themselves, "wow that was impressive". hl2dm and other games like it are much more nuanced in how people can do things which we as experienced players can recognize as being impressive; someone in this game can headshot someone else with the 357 who is across the map and a random person watching the game might not immediately know what happened, or there are a million other things which the random person who isn't experienced with the particular game wouldn't immediately recognize as being impressive. but people who are not hardcore gamers can watch a cs match and be awed by what they see.

I do agree. But in contrary grenades being shot and crossbow shot can aw people. I think that when a noob comes into DM for the first time. They go to a killbox or somthing and become so overly overwhelmed that they quti. Its so fast paced that they just give up. Which is lame. I remember first starting off in KBH not knowing how good they really were, it did pay off in the long run from the learning.

So I take it there will never be a competition for HL..=/ That makes me sad inside. =/

to answer the topic though:

the biggest reason that cs is successful i think is because of its simplicity. people can watch others playing it and they see someone headshotting someone else through a scope and they can say to themselves, "wow that was impressive". hl2dm and other games like it are much more nuanced in how people can do things which we as experienced players can recognize as being impressive; someone in this game can headshot someone else with the 357 who is across the map and a random person watching the game might not immediately know what happened, or there are a million other things which the random person who isn't experienced with the particular game wouldn't immediately recognize as being impressive. but people who are not hardcore gamers can watch a cs match and be awed by what they see.

I do agree. But in contrary grenades being shot and crossbow shot can aw people. I think that when a noob comes into DM for the first time. They go to a killbox or somthing and become so overly overwhelmed that they quti. Its so fast paced that they just give up. Which is lame. I remember first starting off in KBH not knowing how good they really were, it did pay off in the long run from the learning.

So I take it there will never be a competition for HL..=/ That makes me sad inside. =/

I really hope black mesa source has multiplayer.

I think it does.

I must be the most addicted person in the world
http://steamcommunity.com/id/Skaruts

On tlc's post, personally, headshots never impressed me much... unless if it's 3 (or 4) made in a row under pressure or something like that, when noticing that it was consistently aimed and not just hesitating luck.

I played CS 1.6 once and it startled me. Played CSS once too, and got the same feeling. I'm like "Omfg, why do ppl play this game??" and I also get that "realistic" arguments from CS(S) players I know. I tell them to go play COD2 if they want "realism". That game I like. I suck at it, but I like it. I still surprise the pros sometimes (never played COD4)

But there's 4 things I hate about CS(S) and that keep me totally out from it.
1- No advanced movement. I came from Quake and UT (old ones) and I'm a fan of DM, not realism, I like fast pace, to be able to evade attacks and to outsmart my adversary, and he may be fast, let me try to be faster... if I couldn't maybe there's another way around. Maybe I can cook nades better, or maybe I manage my weapons better. CS(S) is just "aim-shoot-walkaside-shoot... see who dies first...

2- No variations to the game. I like to go DM, then make a CTF match, then a CP match, something to keep me interested and out of the everyday routine. I like COD2 despite the same limitations, cuz 1st, the maps are much more realist too, and 2nd, cuz there are more variations to go for. Well, in CS you got also the surf maps.... but....

3-Fire in the hole! Man I hate that sound.... mainly cuz you hear it like 50000 times per match. OMFG!

4- Not much of a learning curve. Like I said, "aim-shoot-walkaside-shoot... see who dies first... Of course you have map techniques, and you can even bhop, but it's just not the same thing. And you either aim good and kill or aim bad and die.

CSS was based and developed by a team of programmers that was external to VALVe. They’ve made the game as an independent mod, perfected it and presented to VALVe. Which in turn, finalized and released as an official mod.

Get the idea? Need more proof of how things work?

Same happened with Portal and L4D and many other independent mods.

So...if a group of high-level programmers, art designers and level designers sits down and work on this lovely idea called DM2 and present it to VAVLe even in early alpha stages there is a very good chance it will become an officially supported mod.

An aside,...the market IS INDEED moving more and more towards co-op style and that is an undisputed fact. Keep that in mind when thinking of a DM2.
Having said that...I think it's very true that if you want new people to be exposed to the advanced movement this game has to offer (and STAY) then you have to take off the hassle and let it work like in Warsow / Quake and the like. The game still has an enormous appeal and I believe even though it cannot be as popular as CSS it can indeed get tenfold more audience than it currently has.

Any Game HAS to have an instant pay-off system for newcommers and kids to latch on to and for it to develop a regular-base. HL2DM current does not.


val

Agree. I'd love if that happened. The only thing I'm afraid is, like you are saying, turning dm2 into something like warsaw and quake.
I wouldn't play HL2DM if it wasn't for the chalange it was to get to know what I know and do what I do, and for the chalange of knowing that I'm good at it, and ppl tell me that, but there's still sooooo much I need to perfect and learn and improve. I get the idea that if theres 10 levels of gameplay, I'm like 3 or 4 and perhaps no one is 10 yet. That's exactly what makes the diference from other games. If it's not noob friendly, I'd suggest thinking of a way to (i.e.) put noobs through a test play (optional built in basic/intermediate/advavanced tutorial) before going to a scrim, instead of changing what the game is. Personaly I would keep playing DM1 if DM2 was changed like that. It would lower the skill ceiling and the learning curve, thus making it just like the others.

The biggest problem of the world is that people are lazy.

4- Not much of a learning curve. Like I said, "aim-shoot-walkaside-shoot... see who dies first... Of course you have map techniques, and you can even bhop, but it's just not the same thing. And you either aim good and kill or aim bad and die.

heh that's kinda the point as to why cs is a popular game

I have... a couple of ideas.

Both are pretty out there..

The first is somehow dare all the really good players from many dm games to try and learn to play hl2dm to the level we play. If the'tre interested in it once they get the hang of it then maybe more life onto the game? :O?

The other idea is just a silly get together between the whole community and have lan parties or a tourney while we're all there. Then somehow make a movie of it, name it something AMAZING and get people to watch it online.


Also I'll probably be another person still playing this game when it dies. ( I CHALLENGE CON AND PARA TO 1v1v1!!!!!!) This was my first online multiplayer but its the only one I've liked and still like enough to keep playing. I'm glad that I took the time to learn it and now its better than ever.

@tlc

No, I haven't. In fact, I've never played a "real" HL2:DM match, either.. I'm new to PC shooters in general, and HL2:DM is my first. I stand corrected with regards to my statement about no map control, but I also think you are taking my words out of context. I meant more of what it was/is in Halo and DM: denying people orbs or controlling the charger in dm_lockdown, preventing people from getting the sword in Halo 2, etc. TF2 has map control - as you said, the whole game is map control - but it's more a class x at position y kind of thing (think engineers in 2Fort.)

I also think people get CS more readily. People have mentioned scoped headshots, and they are right. It forces the person to know what they are doing, and what goes into it. But .conflict's video comes to mind where he prop jumps to where the two barrels are in dm_lockdown from the lower level, grabs a boom-barrel, puts it over the railing edge, and hits the person he was fighting square on. There's so much that goes into being able to do that, let alone do it fluidly and instinctively that I think it goes above people's heads.


Just my $0.02, for what it's worth.

@tlc (...)
There's so much that goes into being able to do that, let alone do it fluidly and instinctively that I think it goes above people's heads.

Just my $0.02, for what it's worth.

And isn't that the beauty of it?

4- Not much of a learning curve. Like I said, "aim-shoot-walkaside-shoot... see who dies first... Of course you have map techniques, and you can even bhop, but it's just not the same thing. And you either aim good and kill or aim bad and die.

heh that's kinda the point as to why cs is a popular game

I still think it's more like because ppl are lazy.

When I showed HL2DM to a CS 1.6 friend of mine he said "omg, that's too complicated!"
I don't disagree. I rather disagree to the fearfull reaction ppl have to complicated stuff... like Math and HL2DM.

is tf2 awesome ?

no it sucks ass

lol 99% of the players in this game would say this because they most likely suck at tf2. why? because they don't understand how to play as a member of a team. in other words, if you try to go rambo in hl2dm (try to run into more than 1 player with a grenade or whatever), your odds of success aren't too terrible. in tf2, if you rambo against any half-way competent team, you're fuckin' dead and useless to your team.

being good at the two games requires different types of skills, that's all, and like i said, the vast vast majority of players in this game probably lack the necessary skills to be good at tf2 despite being good at half-life 2

being completely honest, though, i did have more fun playing hl2dm when it was at its height in popularity than i did with tf2, but that does not by any means suggest that tf2 is a bad game

i had to edit my post after i saw this to demonstrate my point:

the weapon pickups (no map control)

no map control in tf2? are you kidding me? have you ever even played a real tf2 match?

the whole damn game is about map control! dustbowl and gravelpit are all about map control in particular. the difference, again, is that people in tf2 need to stick to their assigned roles. this often means watching a particular part of the map and not ramboing in to try to kill people, because in tf2, whoever has the most points is not at all indicative of how important they are to their team. there is far more than just saying "oh hey we'll all stay in this general area around x weapon spawn". people need to actually utilize the structure of the map to their advantage and ensure that all choke points are accounted for. i could go on and on about what i learned from my good friend xaj about tf2 strategy, but that's the basics and to suggest that there is no map control in tf2 is crazy.

no i wanted this game(tf2)bad i played it and was showing good skills quick
actually but after a week or two it seemed too boring over and over the same thing
hl2dm is the same thing over and over but you dont have to do the same thing
over and over............but i am biased because i dont like comicy representation
i guess lol each to their own

TFC's the shit because it had the team orientation of any team game (TF2 included) map control, advanced movement, and a really fucking good player COULD MAYBE rambo his ass around 3-4 guys. Too bad there's only 3 servers of Fortress Forever ;(

Yea, selling drugs, and pimping.
Hows your bitch hand?

TFC's the shit because it had the team orientation of any team game (TF2 included) map control, advanced movement, and a really fucking good player COULD MAYBE rambo his ass around 3-4 guys. Too bad there's only 3 servers of Fortress Forever ;(

Idk that. And it's what I'm afraid that happens to HL2DM...

Pernicious's signature
_________________
NO SALVATION HA! HA! NO FORGIVENESS HA HA!!

That's one of my favorite songs ever.

The first is somehow dare all the really good players from many dm games to try and learn to play hl2dm to the level we play. If the'tre interested in it once they get the hang of it then maybe more life onto the game? :O?

The other idea is just a silly get together between the whole community and have lan parties or a tourney while we're all there. Then somehow make a movie of it, name it something AMAZING and get people to watch it online.

.

The first one sounds good. The second one has already been tried, it didn't work.

i don't play any other games, but i'll throw in my $.02.

i love this game. my biggest frustration though is 'netcode' variables. do other games have this same issue?

there have been some epic arguments over rates, what they do, what they don't do, etc, etc. this extends to not only player rates... but also server rates. even with CAL, there are varying opinions regarding the 'appropriate' rates for the best hit registration.

to me, that is a huge impediment to turning this game pro. acceptable standard rates have to be established with no or very limited variables possible. and those rates have to be standardized throughout the community... not just for competitions. those rates should be based on TODAYS broadband speeds... not DIALUP speeds!

i know a lot you live and die by watching net_graph. it's something i've rarely used because i don't really understand much of what i'm seeing beyond choke. choke is bad! that's the about the limit of my understanding. but i use it from time-to-time when something seems amiss and i can't quite put my finger on the issue. like last night for example. lo and behold, i was getting consistant choke above 30. wtf?!?!?!? so i have to come to the U, read up on netcode, etc. i check my rate and see thats it's at 9999. how the fuck did that happen??? anyways, raised my rate and choke went away. not only is the SKILL learning curve steep with this game, but also the TECHNICAL knowledge learning curve is steep in this game.

Loss is bad too.

I wish i understood any of this rate stuff. I do know this: you can't play with 56 choke!!
Paradox told me raise my rate to 50000, and bingo!
I tried that 67% stuff, what a mess.

The first is somehow dare all the really good players from many dm games to try and learn to play hl2dm to the level we play. If the'tre interested in it once they get the hang of it then maybe more life onto the game? :O?

I just tried that with unreal and I've got some pretty harsh yet understandable responses such as:
'' Source netcode is horrible'' ''CAL is pointless i'm staying with QuakeCon'' and some of really good players from diff games:
"The ammo pickups blocking the shots, weird player animations and having to play through steam is overall a bad idea imho"
My posts on other dm games forums were quickly dealt with aswell (deleted/ account suspended for advertising..)

of all the dm games, hl2dm is really, a bitch.
A bitch we love because we got to know her but, to everyone else, she looks like a hopeless crack whore.

@tlc

No, I haven't. In fact, I've never played a "real" HL2:DM match, either.. I'm new to PC shooters in general, and HL2:DM is my first. I stand corrected with regards to my statement about no map control, but I also think you are taking my words out of context. I meant more of what it was/is in Halo and DM: denying people orbs or controlling the charger in dm_lockdown, preventing people from getting the sword in Halo 2, etc. TF2 has map control - as you said, the whole game is map control - but it's more a class x at position y kind of thing (think engineers in 2Fort.)

I also think people get CS more readily. People have mentioned scoped headshots, and they are right. It forces the person to know what they are doing, and what goes into it. But .conflict's video comes to mind where he prop jumps to where the two barrels are in dm_lockdown from the lower level, grabs a boom-barrel, puts it over the railing edge, and hits the person he was fighting square on. There's so much that goes into being able to do that, let alone do it fluidly and instinctively that I think it goes above people's heads.


Just my $0.02, for what it's worth.

fyi no one ever plays 2fort competitively (and public servers empty out whenever the map changes to 2fort so)

engineers aren't even an important aspect to 2fort. they can cover 1 choke at best and the team still needs to use "map control" to cover every possible scenario of entry. of course this isn't really fun so no one ever wants to play 2fort.

i don't think you are seeing that there are less tangible, yet still exceedingly important, aspects of "map control" which go beyond just saying to yourself "i think i will stay in x area".

I don't like internet arguments and I won't take this one further. You win. You're pro at DM and TF2, I'm a n00b to both.

I gotta know though, is your avatar from the Belle & Sebastian album Tigermilk? It looks really familiar.

I just tried that with unreal and I've got some pretty harsh yet understandable responses such as:
'' Source netcode is horrible'' ''CAL is pointless i'm staying with QuakeCon'' and some of really good players from diff games:
"The ammo pickups blocking the shots, weird player animations and having to play through steam is overall a bad idea imho"
My posts on other dm games forums were quickly dealt with aswell (deleted/ account suspended for advertising..)

It's not the source netcode is it if it was as bad as they say then CS:S wouldn't be so popular.

It's not the source netcode is it if it was as bad as they say then CS:S wouldn't be so popular.

As far as im concerned, CSS is as fucked as hl2/l4d/tf2 as far as net management/random crash-disconnection goes.

TFC's the shit because it had the team orientation of any team game (TF2 included) map control, advanced movement, and a really fucking good player COULD MAYBE rambo his ass around 3-4 guys. Too bad there's only 3 servers of Fortress Forever ;(

Fortress Forever is what TF2 should have been. Instead, TF2 is just TFC's retarded cousin that people love, but no matter how much attention he gets, he's still retarded and will always have to wear that helmet.

TFC's the shit because it had the team orientation of any team game (TF2 included) map control, advanced movement, and a really fucking good player COULD MAYBE rambo his ass around 3-4 guys. Too bad there's only 3 servers of Fortress Forever ;(

Fortress Forever is what TF2 should have been. Instead, TF2 is just TFC's retarded cousin that people love, but no matter how much attention he gets, he's still retarded and will always have to wear that helmet.

lmao!!!!

I don't like internet arguments and I won't take this one further. You win. You're pro at DM and TF2, I'm a n00b to both.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_pity

I gotta know though, is your avatar from the Belle & Sebastian album Tigermilk? It looks really familiar.

yes they are my favorite band

I wish i understood any of this rate stuff. I do know this: you can't play with 56 choke!!
Paradox told me raise my rate to 50000, and bingo!
I tried that 67% stuff, what a mess.

yea thats also one problem valve made crappy default settings for this game. This can be solved with server settings forcing good settings onto the client but unfortunately hl2dm uni community only makes a small part of overall populace that plays hl2dm. This is mainly due to not given a place co-op players or ctf or to some degree kill box. My honest option on what i think of uni is that its solely dm players that play competitively. Tho i don't think it was intentional that what has happened if we had lets say of on the top of my head a killbox section or co-op and tried bring them into the picture then may be they could be convert them into the proper dm but really do not see anything relating to them. When someone joins a server is unlikely to be one run by peeps that know about hl2dm uni. If we had them part the community gives us greater influence over server in the hl2dm list where we could try and bring in some standardization like server settings and those help improve the overall experience for players.

Also where is the sticks for good topics out there that are really so useful topics that some really should know which i think should be made sticky. Also some topics not made like making a server I have no idea to make one but my friend roel puts allot of time setting up and running our public servers and he too has trouble tho all raw servers are run on a dedicated server so I can't roel can be much help setting up servers that most use.

On the debate on tf2 with hl2dm well you can't compare them they are not in same the category of play hl2dm is straight classic DM game TF2 is team role based game. So one which is best is based on personal preference of game type by the player that plays it.

Personally I think CAL should allow a rate of 50000 because the game does run smoother at that rate.

The netcode has nothing to do with this game not going pro, because all of the netcode-related defects we experience everyday online dont exist in lan play. The physics do reliable/expected damage and dont cause retarded boosts or glitches when touched, lifts are butter smooth, textures arent sticky, hit reg is flawless, orbs/nades etc can be caught 100%, you can even reliably deflect smgnades midair with ggun primary if your aim is up to the task.

Now the bugs... heh. Those are another matter. Also, as mentioned before, the top lan dm games tend to have proper competitive mods, something hl2dm is unlikely to ever see.

Agree with TF2 being a watered down game as well. Between the so-low-i-cant-even-stand-up skill ceilings on the classes, the near total lack of advanced techniques, the loads of noob-friendly / skill-degrading features like charging sniper shots, sticky traps, sentries having aimbot / knockback / no distance falloff, the random damages and crits... plenty more, but i think its obvious to anyone that this game was meant to cash in on the mass market, not provide serious or competitive play, and it shows.

FF would probably have been better and/or more popular if it hadnt tried so hard to be a virtual sequel to TFC. Then again, even so it would likely have failed, because there simply isnt a solid market for skill intensive, steep learning curve games these days.

There is distance fall off?

There is distance fall off?

Yes. If you are a soldier and you fire a rocket at a pyro at point blank, it will hurt him much worse then if you shoot that rocket from across the map and hit him in the same place. TF2 is a stupid game. It's a very good looking game, but they dumbed it down to no end compared to TFC.

wow, that is stupid

Agree with TF2 being a watered down game as well. Between the so-low-i-cant-even-stand-up skill ceilings on the classes, the near total lack of advanced techniques, the loads of noob-friendly / skill-degrading features like charging sniper shots, sticky traps, sentries having aimbot / knockback / no distance falloff, the random damages and crits... plenty more, but i think its obvious to anyone that this game was meant to cash in on the mass market, not provide serious or competitive play, and it shows.

lol this is totally not true. just one's aim is not at all what makes you good at the game, and this is what deathmatch game players fail to understand. rather than spending time on perfecting all the stupid little tricks and techniques and bugs in a game like you do in hl2dm, tf2 requires you to use your brain. people need to use teamwork; i don't know how many times i have to say this. it's not as easy as it sounds, either. tf2 is a much more difficult game to actually master.

i do agree that any idiot can probably do well in a public server, but any idiot cannot even begin to compete in real competitive play. i'll ask you the same question, have you ever played on a legit TF2 clan in leagues? because i have (you can ask folks like seagull or mario or leg as well and it wouldn't surprise me if they give you the same answer) and i can tell you tf2 is so much more mentally taxing than hl2dm can ever dream of being.

now does this necessarily translate into fun? heh like i have said before i have had more fun playing hl2dm than tf2 but again as SND accurately said, the games require completely different strategies and skillsets.

ps leagues disable crits

I have... a couple of ideas.

Both are pretty out there..

The first is somehow dare all the really good players from many dm games to try and learn to play hl2dm to the level we play. If the'tre interested in it once they get the hang of it then maybe more life onto the game? :O?

The other idea is just a silly get together between the whole community and have lan parties or a tourney while we're all there. Then somehow make a movie of it, name it something AMAZING and get people to watch it online.


Also I'll probably be another person still playing this game when it dies. ( I CHALLENGE CON AND PARA TO 1v1v1!!!!!!) This was my first online multiplayer but its the only one I've liked and still like enough to keep playing. I'm glad that I took the time to learn it and now its better than ever.

I went to the PDX lan ( about 450-500 people ) and tried to get that played into the game. When I did manage to find a few people that wanted to play the game would crash everyone at the exact same time every few minutes. FUN. Simple updates once in awhile would fix many of our probblems.

Agree with TF2 being a watered down game as well. Between the so-low-i-cant-even-stand-up skill ceilings on the classes, the near total lack of advanced techniques, the loads of noob-friendly / skill-degrading features like charging sniper shots, sticky traps, sentries having aimbot / knockback / no distance falloff, the random damages and crits... plenty more, but i think its obvious to anyone that this game was meant to cash in on the mass market, not provide serious or competitive play, and it shows.

lol this is totally not true. just one's aim is not at all what makes you good at the game, and this is what deathmatch game players fail to understand. rather than spending time on perfecting all the stupid little tricks and techniques and bugs in a game like you do in hl2dm, tf2 requires you to use your brain. people need to use teamwork; i don't know how many times i have to say this. it's not as easy as it sounds, either. tf2 is a much more difficult game to actually master.

i do agree that any idiot can probably do well in a public server, but any idiot cannot even begin to compete in real competitive play. i'll ask you the same question, have you ever played on a legit TF2 clan in leagues? because i have (you can ask folks like seagull or mario or leg as well and it wouldn't surprise me if they give you the same answer) and i can tell you tf2 is so much more mentally taxing than hl2dm can ever dream of being.

now does this necessarily translate into fun? heh like i have said before i have had more fun playing hl2dm than tf2 but again as SND accurately said, the games require completely different strategies and skillsets.

ps leagues disable crits

I played a couple scrims as a ringer on seagulls team, and a handful of arena pugs. The personal skill level required compared to dm was not even close. Im sure at the top level, when everyone knows every glitch on every map, and the exact number of seconds needed to get from cap x to cap y etc, the teamwork factor becomes crucial, but teamwork =! high class skill ceilings, and id really like more from an fps than wasd space m1 (scouting, in this case) with a minimal dash of prioritizing and prediction thrown in.

Not to mention the bs like class limits because the community is too scrubby or lost in the their tfc past to let the metagame play out and see if theyre even needed (half the arena pugs call for this too, even though the format is not even 3 months old), or all the silly noob happy crap valve added to the game like deathcams and nemesis signs to give your position away, or how theyve slowly edited out almost all of the advanced movements or interesting z-axis positions on the official maps.

And ya, im aware crits are off in scrims, but that unfortunately doesnt remove random damage or the whole rpsish class system that promotes class counterpicking (arena) over skill improvement, or virtually locks half the classes out of the game (standard) because the lack of advanced techniques assures theres no way to overcome their hardcoded low skill ceilings or deficiencies.

I did hope tf2 was going to turn out well as far as team based competitive play went- it looked like a nice alternative to all those bland hitscanfests like cs and dod etc, especially when arena mode was added to the picture- but unless it gets a promod and a pro minded community to match, i just dont see it happening.

A bitch we love because we got to know her but, to everyone else, she looks like a hopeless crack whore.

You make me lol.

I won't give up on her. She gave me too many long fun nights for me to just drop her like that.


Well this all these dieing FPS whats hot now? For majorly multilayer FPS? Do they even compare to HL? From what I've heard everything else is point and click. But can anyone tell me about a game called painkiller? I heard its good? Possibly diffrent?

A bitch we love because we got to know her but, to everyone else, she looks like a hopeless crack whore.

You make me lol.

I won't give up on her. She gave me too many long fun nights for me to just drop her like that.


Well this all these dieing FPS whats hot now? For majorly multilayer FPS? Do they even compare to HL? From what I've heard everything else is point and click. But can anyone tell me about a game called painkiller? I heard its good? Possibly diffrent?

Painkiller is also fast paced. I never played multi-player but if the single is any indication multiple humans could be pretty fun.

Painkiller is also fast paced. I never played multi-player but if the single is any indication multiple humans could be pretty fun.

http://www.vitivi.tv/play/neue_videos/2883.html

Yes, very much like UT. But I just don't like it's weapons at all.

Painkiller is a quality game but you will be lucky to find more than 2 players on a server now.

If u turn the rates, and tickrate up to 100 (forced) on a dedicated server (steamless) on LAN, ko, u will see fucked up physics and hit reg

Not sure if any of you have seen this I think some one pasted the link but i missed it but look at the numbers this is just players playing today steam does have a graph for steam users but not for specfic games so can't make out the trend.

Current Players | Peak Today | Game

17,303 | 87,190 | Counter-Strike: Source
14,310 | 70,369 | Counter-Strike
6,934 | 17,822 | Left 4 Dead
4,170 | 20,454 | Football Manager 2009
3,583 | 10,017 | Team Fortress 2
1,777 | 9,769 | Condition Zero
1,365 | 6,934 | Day of Defeat: Source
880 | 3,134 | Garry's Mod
636 | 1,226 | Grand Theft Auto IV
555 | 2,104 | Half-Life 2: Deathmatch
548 | 1,781 | Half-Life 2
458 | 2,155 | Day of Defeat
269 | 794 | Zombie Panic! Source

compared us to css numbers and it scary.
uni steam group of hl2dm players
3,203 Members

OMG! Does that mean, if steam had this game in their store, it would have 25000 players?

JK. Actually that game is kinda cool.
But I kind of think like that of CS and games that have (almost) no kind of advanced movement and even most Single Player FPS games. But that would make me put too much phylosophy into the topic...

[quote="SND"]Not sure if any of you have seen this I think some one pasted the link but i missed it but look at the numbers this is just players playing today steam does have a graph for steam users but not for specfic games so can't make out the trend.

Current Players | Peak Today | Game

17,303 | 87,190 | Counter-Strike: Source
14,310 | 70,369 | Counter-Strike
6,934 | 17,822 | Left 4 Dead
4,170 | 20,454 | Football Manager 2009
3,583 | 10,017 | Team Fortress 2
1,777 | 9,769 | Condition Zero
1,365 | 6,934 | Day of Defeat: Source
880 | 3,134 | Garry's Mod
636 | 1,226 | Grand Theft Auto IV
555 | 2,104 | Half-Life 2: Deathmatch

Omfg good find. Thats kind of scary. Like were on the extinction list or something...

There is distance fall off?

Yes. If you are a soldier and you fire a rocket at a pyro at point blank, it will hurt him much worse then if you shoot that rocket from across the map and hit him in the same place. TF2 is a stupid game. It's a very good looking game, but they dumbed it down to no end compared to TFC.

Yes, I know. Ko Tao said there was no damage fall off.

WT what you don't understand is that skill in tf2 is not how well you can aim or how well you can master any stupid exploits (and and there aren't many to do since valve actually gives two shits about the game). it is about working together as a team, which requires tons and tons of more practice and perfection than abusing glitches and exploits and learning how to aim, etc. no offense, but you can't know this unless you've actually been part of a serious tf2 team, ringing doesn't quite qualify in that regard because you're not actually doing much preparation.

i have played against pandemic (the best tf2 team) and good god they are ridiculous. if you don't think there is more "skill" required in being able to completely master strategies like pandemic does to just completely overrun maps and teams than being able to hit a few buttons at the right time to perform an exploit, well, i don't know what to tell you.

Another one that thinks bhop is an exploit... OMFG....
No more comments....

Another one that thinks bhop is an exploit... OMFG....
No more comments....

lmao you have no idea who this guy is XD

lulz

Another one that thinks bhop is an exploit... OMFG....
No more comments....

http://www.hl2dm-university.com/frag_videos.php
Scroll to the bottom.

tlc = rubber soul.

Another one that thinks bhop is an exploit... OMFG....
No more comments....

lmao you have no idea who this guy is XD

No, I haven't. But I don't care much about it.

I have compared both the SP and the MP versions of HL2 and, despite that the advanced movement may have been unintentional in the SP version, it clearly was kept intentionally and even perfected to the MP version. And If you compare them closely you'll get the same conclusions.
But even so I cannot take it as 100% sure, because Valve never made it clear to anyone. So, don't call exploits to something you can't be sure if it is. As there's much intention on that matter in this kind of games. Look at Warsaw, even has a special key for special movements.

Other than that, there's teamplay in all games involving teams, ffs. Some more than other, but if there's teams, there's teamplay.
Personally I don't enjoy "point&click-like" games, I'm an agile person in real life and I know I can dodge something if I need, so I feel more like myself in a game with advanced movement.
And for that I'm glad there's such games. Otherwise I wouldn't be playing MP FPSs at all.

Stop comparing diferent things.

Another one that thinks bhop is an exploit... OMFG....
No more comments....

lmao you have no idea who this guy is XD

But even so I cannot take it as 100% sure, because Valve never made it clear to anyone. So, don't call exploits to something you can't be sure if it is. As there's much intention on that matter in this kind of games. Look at Warsaw, even has a special key for special movements.

I think Valve confirmed that it was intentional before Fios. I'm not completely sure though.

Yes, I know. Ko Tao said there was no damage fall off.

I said sentries had no damage over distance falloff. This is of note because every other hitscan weapon except the sniper rifle (and most other weapons, for that matter) has falloff.

WT what you don't understand is that skill in tf2 is not how well you can aim or how well you can master any stupid exploits (and and there aren't many to do since valve actually gives two shits about the game). it is about working together as a team, which requires tons and tons of more practice and perfection than abusing glitches and exploits and learning how to aim, etc. no offense, but you can't know this unless you've actually been part of a serious tf2 team, ringing doesn't quite qualify in that regard because you're not actually doing much preparation.

i have played against pandemic (the best tf2 team) and good god they are ridiculous. if you don't think there is more "skill" required in being able to completely master strategies like pandemic does to just completely overrun maps and teams than being able to hit a few buttons at the right time to perform an exploit, well, i don't know what to tell you.

Im not WT. Anyhow, mastering advanced techniques etc is just as skill intensive as mastering teamwork, the only difference is what type of play each skillset is going to pay off in.

I came to tf2 hoping for something akin to hl2dmctf with classes and without the bugs. What i found was nothing close to this; while the heavy emphasis on teamwork is fine (and expected), the classes having a general individual skill ceiling or complexity thats 1/10th of hl2dms (at best; some are notably much worse) and the long list of noob-friendly features that gimp up competitive play, are not fine at all.

I think Valve confirmed that it was intentional before Fios. I'm not completely sure though.

From what I've read around, I can't be completely sure either, cuz no one else seems to be sure. One thing I know. You can strafe-jump and overbounce in the SP version too, but you can only overbounce silently in the MP version. That is, they touched it...

I never played TF2 more than once. But the idea I have about is the same as Ko-Tao's. But I can't speak about something I don't know. I just have that idea of it.

teams than being able to hit a few buttons at the right time to perform an exploit, well, i don't know what to tell you.

Who here is feed up of hearing this line "it’s a exploit". It really envoys me that people come up with excuses such as this to try and knock this game down they are mainly peeps with limited knowledge of what a true DM game is. There has been games long before this that has had bhop movement in the game. Plus as well as i know in FOIS valve had no objection to the bhop movement that players where using in game in fact this game would of been well and truly dead if it was not possible . Imagine it walking about the map being a plain easy target to all sorts we could well and true see lame tacs such as waiting around corners aiming at head high like they do in css.

There is no denying that it takes allot of skill to do it not just that but time put in to train. Bhop is pretty much part of this game and is widely used by players thanks to uni site and players spreading their knowledge. How can something be a exploit which by definition is gaining a one sided advantage over a another when mostly everyone is able to do it. If so then why has gaming leagues excepted it such as CAL you would think these guys got a better understanding of what a exploit is than anyone in the gaming community ?

I really prefer not to talk about which is better TF2 or hl2dm. Though I make it clear I got bored TF2 well quick (going around as a pyro and laughing over someone I killed warned off) this is my opion btw.

I really prefer to talk about this game hl2dm which we play and what this site is all about and discuses where it has gone wrong and what we can do to further improve it. There is allot more we can do and if we used the energy we put into arguing into promoting the game then the game could be pretty big. This game has allot to offer and it up to us to drown out those that knock this game.

I posted this in the Ways to get more people interested and playing HL2DM topic.

(...)
I rather help the "noobs" in what I can, even after they call me a cheater, and sometimes I even say "gg, http://www.hl2dm-univerity.com" like the guys from the U do when they leave the servers. Subtle, but may be effective.

I think the best would be to educate the "noobs" by spreading the knowledge we have so that they can stick to the game and consequencially get their exitement to their friends, leading "outsiders" to try it out knowing already what the game is about.
...Imo...

We would need to lead some ppl to try other weapons besides RPG and SMG. Unfortunatelly there's a big scale of players who "only know" those two weapons, making themselves too vulnerable when they dont have them (or have no more ammo), consequentially leading them to quti the game. Thats what usually happens when I'm playing only against "noobs", I end up alone in the server. I'm gonna start spectating when I'm in such situation. I don't want to lower their morale or something and make them quti.

In short: We should "grab" the ones we have instead of scaring them, and even instead of pulling the ones we don't have. No one ever reacts well when is feeling pulled into something, rather than compeled to do it.

Another thing that may lead many "noobs" to quti is the approach that many "good" players have towards them (forgetting that THEY were noobs once, too):

"GoodP" - fucking noob...
"Noob" - FU hotshot
"GoodP" - 1 vs 1?
"Noob" - What for?
"GoodP" - So I can own your fuckin ass. NOOB
"Noob" - ... (quits or gets even more mad and they start a useless and pointless fight and the "noob" gets a big bad impression on the HL community, possibly leading him to never return)

(names are in quotation marks only because in most occasions neither one is a GOOOOOD player neither the other is a noob. So called noobs may play for long time, they just never learned anything new)

I think it's a start, and we could try to also educate the players that through frustration or whatever offend other players and stain the community.
I'm glad with myself that I managed to overcome that. I used to do a little of it. Not much, but one day I came to understand that it takes me nowhere, it sure doesn't help me get any better, and now I see that it's a prejudice for the game I love.

I've just been called a scripter again, btw. I told them to go see onti's tut on movement. They kept insisting that my kind of movement couldn't be done manually and bla bla bla, so I insisted on them to follow the link I gave until they changed subject and it was ok. Not sure if any of them went to see the video, but I tried.

The only thing you can do is try and help those that actually do listen and want to learn. For those than cant or are not willing to, there is nothing you can do but let them call you a haxor and pwn them til they leave or you get banned. As always tho, as you did, keep respectfully repeating where they can learn and never ever lower yourself to their level. If not them, then perhaps some of those witnessing will be willing to have an open mind and seek out the info.

WT what you don't understand is that skill in tf2 is not how well you can aim or how well you can master any stupid exploits (and and there aren't many to do since valve actually gives two shits about the game). it is about working together as a team, which requires tons and tons of more practice and perfection than abusing glitches and exploits and learning how to aim, etc. no offense, but you can't know this unless you've actually been part of a serious tf2 team, ringing doesn't quite qualify in that regard because you're not actually doing much preparation.

i have played against pandemic (the best tf2 team) and good god they are ridiculous. if you don't think there is more "skill" required in being able to completely master strategies like pandemic does to just completely overrun maps and teams than being able to hit a few buttons at the right time to perform an exploit, well, i don't know what to tell you.

I don't think there is more skill involved in memorizing strategies at all. It's just that a team with strategies that has practiced them for ages will stomp all over a team that hasn't in TF2.

HL2DM also has map strategies, memorizing weapon spawn times, and also a high level of individual skill. To say that 4v4 or 2v2 requires no teamwork or strategies is stupid.

I'd say that getting to the level of a skilled player in HL2DM takes longer than it would ever take to master TF2 as a team. You can cap out individual skill in TF2 in about 1/10th of the time as HL2DM, as mentioned above, and from there on out you just have to play with a specific subset of players and learn a few strategies.

TF2 sucks as a competitive game, I don't like to rely on other people, and I prefer to advance my skills as an individual and the ceiling is far too low for that in TF2.

It's like saying WoW raids require skill. Back in the day you had 40 players working together, each individual player didn't have to be very good at all, it just took a lot of practice and memorization to get everyone to work together properly. The individual skill cap in a raid was very, very low, and actually only included pressing a few buttons and avoiding some things. Nobody in the world would ever say WoW requires more skill than HL2DM. I think TF2 is the same way. Memorizing strategies is not as difficult as aiming, movement, and the reflexes required in HL2DM. If you think otherwise, well, then I don't know what to say to you (besides that you suck at HL2DM).

Sorry if this doesn't make sense I'm tired.

WT what you don't understand is that skill in tf2 is not how well you can aim or how well you can master any stupid exploits (and and there aren't many to do since valve actually gives two shits about the game). it is about working together as a team, which requires tons and tons of more practice and perfection than abusing glitches and exploits and learning how to aim, etc. no offense, but you can't know this unless you've actually been part of a serious tf2 team, ringing doesn't quite qualify in that regard because you're not actually doing much preparation.

i have played against pandemic (the best tf2 team) and good god they are ridiculous. if you don't think there is more "skill" required in being able to completely master strategies like pandemic does to just completely overrun maps and teams than being able to hit a few buttons at the right time to perform an exploit, well, i don't know what to tell you.

I don't think there is more skill involved in memorizing strategies at all. It's just that a team with strategies that has practiced them for ages will stomp all over a team that hasn't in TF2.

HL2DM also has map strategies, memorizing weapon spawn times, and also a high level of individual skill. To say that 4v4 or 2v2 requires no teamwork or strategies is stupid.

I'd say that getting to the level of a skilled player in HL2DM takes longer than it would ever take to master TF2 as a team. You can cap out individual skill in TF2 in about 1/10th of the time as HL2DM, as mentioned above, and from there on out you just have to play with a specific subset of players and learn a few strategies.

TF2 sucks as a competitive game, I don't like to rely on other people, and I prefer to advance my skills as an individual and the ceiling is far too low for that in TF2.

It's like saying WoW raids require skill. Back in the day you had 40 players working together, each individual player didn't have to be very good at all, it just took a lot of practice and memorization to get everyone to work together properly. The individual skill cap in a raid was very, very low, and actually only included pressing a few buttons and avoiding some things. Nobody in the world would ever say WoW requires more skill than HL2DM. I think TF2 is the same way. Memorizing strategies is not as difficult as aiming, movement, and the reflexes required in HL2DM. If you think otherwise, well, then I don't know what to say to you (besides that you suck at HL2DM).

Sorry if this doesn't make sense I'm tired.

That make total sense I never played TF2 But it looks poorly designed and full of rocket whores. Thats just from the videos i've seen.

On dox. Yes, I came to the point where I always keep my natural friendly posture. When they insist I may get angry but I don't offend anyone, though I may think about it. I prefer to spam the chat box a little with an ununswered question like "do you even know what bhopping is?" or "have you ever even seen an aimbot with your own eyes?" than try to convince them by just saying I don't cheat. As for the second question, I usually tend not to ask something like that, cuz they always (blindly) say that they can smell a script or an aimbot from milles away... that's what annoyes me most. They don't know it but insist they do.

Whatever... I should be able to achieve something someday.

On voxtex, I know this for sure: I'm playing for only six months, but I a week after I started playing this game I was alredy giving my first attempts on bhopping, grav-nading, and some other things. After six months, I "hear" some ppl say I've got a good movement and that I'm good at this game, but I know that there's still so many things I do wrong and so many things I'm still not reacting to under pressure, I commit so many mistakes and many weapons and gathering mismanagements, so many map paths I don't flow through, so many nades I still mistime, so many mistakes and corrections I do while I bhop from point A to point B, and I've played once or twice against some higher leveled players like teto and briggs, for example, and I see that they're so much above my level and it makes me sure about still having a really long way to go untill I reach such level, if I ever do.

I can't really be sure about TF2 skill ceiling, but I agree that it takes a whole lot of time and practice and experience to perfect in HL2DM. Even UT doesn't seem like a game with a high skill ceilling to me after I've turned a better player at HL2DM.
I had never seen a simple shooter game with so much to learn and to go to, and with such versatility. And I never had so much fun at any other also.

playing hl2dm in 2v2s or 4v4s or 3v3s or whatever is nothing compared to tf2 so don't bother trying to compare them, tf2 is the most team skill intensive game out right now

and i find the individual skill ceiling in scrims as a soldier to be just as high if not higher as hl2dm, then again i was just absolutely terrible at hl2dm what am i thinkin

@ voxtex your opponents are humans not AI or something silly, memorizing strats doesn't work in tf2 just as it doesn't work in hl2dm

playing hl2dm in 2v2s or 4v4s or 3v3s or whatever is nothing compared to tf2 so don't bother trying to compare them, tf2 is the most team skill intensive game out right now

I agree with this.

and i find the individual skill ceiling in scrims as a soldier to be just as high if not higher as hl2dm, then again i was just absolutely terrible at hl2dm what am i thinkin.

I disagree with all of this lol.

If they brinch mulch back in TF2, i'll be only playing this.

playing hl2dm in 2v2s or 4v4s or 3v3s or whatever is nothing compared to tf2 so don't bother trying to compare them, tf2 is the most team skill intensive game out right now

and i find the individual skill ceiling in scrims as a soldier to be just as high if not higher as hl2dm, then again i was just absolutely terrible at hl2dm what am i thinkin

@ voxtex your opponents are humans not AI or something silly, memorizing strats doesn't work in tf2 just as it doesn't work in hl2dm

You're right and I won't debate this any further since I don't have extensive experience with real TF2 teamplay.

I just don't like playing with a team, I prefer to advance individual skill, and not rely on other people.

playing hl2dm in 2v2s or 4v4s or 3v3s or whatever is nothing compared to tf2 so don't bother trying to compare them, tf2 is the most team skill intensive game out right now

and i find the individual skill ceiling in scrims as a soldier to be just as high if not higher as hl2dm, then again i was just absolutely terrible at hl2dm what am i thinkin

@ voxtex your opponents are humans not AI or something silly, memorizing strats doesn't work in tf2 just as it doesn't work in hl2dm

mmhm pretty much. there is a difference between memorizing and executing.

seems to me the following is true from this topic:

people who have actually played tf2 and hl2dm at high levels agree that tf2 is more intensive

people who have played hl2dm at high levels and have played tf2 only in pubs or not at all think tf2 is a noob game

either way it is also true that comparing the gameplay of the two games is drastically different; like i said though, tf2 is much much more mentally taxing, for me anyway

i also understand, though, that i am arguing against hl2dm...on an hl2dm forum, so this isn't exactly an argument tf2 can win heh

I would have thought something that is allot more to harder to do and longer to master would be considered more skilled than something that is not that difficult.

May be my logic here is wrong may be something that very simple can be highly skilled but I think you mixing up individual skill with team skill which i keep on saying here are completely different individual skill in this game is still far higher than tf2 no matter what you say. In tf2 you can rely on your team mates to make up for not being that good but your sure as hell can't hide that in a dm in this game.


you find tf2 mentally taxing I find that hard to believe because I find is mentally mind numbing ( still good for mindless fun tho) matter of opion I guess where all diffrent.

Actually, in TF2 you MUST rely on your team mates to help you or you are dead. Each class has its own strengths and weaknesses that the others complement. A well rounded team will generally fair better than one that is not. In many ways I agree TF2 is the ultimate game in teamwork because of that. In TF2, you need to also be a bit more versatile and have the ability to be able to play the different classes. Each of them requires a bit of a different mindset to play well and that doesnt exist in DM for the most part except on a map level. Some maps you play combine differently than rebel because of the spawns.

However I do feel that the overall individual skill level necessary has greater emphasis in HL2DM because of the advanced movement and the levels it gets to. Tf2 has very little in individual advanced movement/skills.

In both games map control is probably the most important aspect of the game. In both games the overall skill of one team over another will determine the winner whether it be combination of individual skills the members of each team possesses, or knowledge and control of the map.

I agree that you really cant compare the two, they are very different games.

In TF2, you need to also be a bit more versatile and have the ability to be able to play the different classes.

Most clans recruit on your specific class. You really only need to know how to play one class well.

i play 1 "competative" class and i think im pretty good @ it

Since most leagues allow two of some classes you really to t have a second class you are good at and the can play at a high level. Our competative TF2 team took that under consideration when recruiting members, not just the player's primary class. Makes the player more valuable overall to the team if they can switch gears depending on the situation.

Many TF2 maps switch a team from offensive to defensive and some classes are better as defensive ones while others are better for offense. Some maps are better for certain classes and not so for others. A player needs to be able to adapt and function at a high level in all the different situations for the team to be successful.

Since most leagues allow two of some classes you really to t have a second class you are good at and the can play at a high level. Our competative TF2 team took that under consideration when recruiting members, not just the player's primary class. Makes the player more valuable overall to the team if they can switch gears depending on the situation.

Many TF2 maps switch a team from offensive to defensive and some classes are better as defensive ones while others are better for offense. Some maps are better for certain classes and not so for others. A player needs to be able to adapt and function at a high level in all the different situations for the team to be successful.

actually the main people that teams get to play more than their main class is mostly the scouts. your always gonna need 2 soldiers and a demo and scouts work in big maps/push maps. but you can switch the scout to lets say engi on gravelpit for B besides the scouts you only really need 1 good class.

css needs to die, for the sake of all gamers, even the ones who play it.
They wont know whats out there until they are forced to look, and beleive me they need to be forced, these css kiddies seem to start young, and seems to be the only game ever bother with after that, half the time.
I can only play the fuckin game for like 2 minutes b4 i get bored an shitty with it, so fucking slow, and then u have retards flashing, and it also surprises me that, for some reason, most of them dont know that if u turn away from a flash it wont effect u or not very much.
I'll say this too, for a game thats suposed to be about aim, with all the shitty tactics involved, and the flashing, an spamming bullets because of the weapon spray(the pros control their spam aparently, i'd rather go straight for the head)...theres not much aim involved. Its shit to watch, the frag vids are shit to watch, and its not FUCKING...........REALILSTIC!

Lol I didn't read this. Lmfao I agree 100%.
I lol'd

I say a bit of that about WOW.
I know some former CS (S and 1.6) good players that gave into WOW and seem the breethe WOW and eat WOW and sleep WOW more than they ever done it with CS.
Hard to understand for me cuz not only WOW sucks as an RPG (I rather play any single player RPG than any plotless and storylineless MMO) but also cuz its only purpose is to put that character (Not you) killing monsters all the time.

The only fun(?) part of the game may be to get 15 (or more) friends of yours to do a... wassitsname... to go in a cave and kill a dragon. But still you only press a few buttons all the time.

Anyway, I only see ppl play games like there's nothing else in the world. I play a LOT of HL2DM but I also have COD1 (that I never had played), and I still play UT'99 and I just don't play other games cuz I don't have them atm. The world is crazy.

I agree with both seagull and the other guy.
TF2 is the more team skill intensive then hl2dm, and hl2dm is more individual skill intensive then tf2, though maybe that skill ceiling is lowered by the amount of spam in hl2dm i dunno, and maybe other reasons too like bugs, the grav gun, hit reg, yada yada yada etc.
In any case, i find tf2 to be extremely boring on pub games, obviously, theres no real teamwork there, and dm is more convenient for a random chaotic fun. Though a server full of complete noobs is never fun, its better wen all players are atleast farmiliar with the game.

I think what it comes down to though, is what the individual prefers, they may or may not be interested in acquiring those skills or playing a game that way.
In the end, you cant really compare the 2, either u prefer 1 over the other, or like them both. Though, being good at both would certainly make u versatile