W A K E U P !

http://video.google.com/videosearch?com ... 4&ct=title#

Wa! Hmm......mummble...zzzzzzzzzzzzz

Also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_government

Skaruts wrote:Also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_government

your post might be misunderstood mate - the World Government is the end goal for the CURRENT powers. World Government is not the aim of the Zeitgeist movement and others like it.
just making sure its clear.

[EYE] Valar wrote:http://video.google.com/videosearch?com ... 4&ct=title#

Thank you for posting Val



also if its not a problem go here for me
http://www.freewebs.com/tazzer/
thanks!

couldn't watch any more after about an hour.

Old and lacks about a lot of information.

this is the updated Zeitgeist movie from 2008 soiz
and yes, not all possible info is there. nor should it be. the idea is well solid. as more info becomes available to ppl they should put it on the web. that's the whole idea.

I thought it was 2006 movie, sorry lol.

There are plenty of books for many years explaining all this, the problem is that nobody reads anymore.

OMG 2 hours...lol. Can I rent it a Blockbuster so I can at least sit on my couch and drink a beer where its more comfortable?

http://zeitgeistchallenge.com/

I can post links too.

Think for yourself once in a while. Following shit like this is no better than following the masses, which is exactly what you seem to be against.

stop posting BS voxtex. seems this is all you do. next time actually follow the link and see what its all about BEFORE you post.

[EYE] Valar wrote:stop posting BS voxtex. seems this is all you do. next time actually follow the link and see what its all about BEFORE you post.

So have you followed my link? Why is mine any more BS than yours? I'm confused.

voxtex wrote:http://zeitgeistchallenge.com/

I can post links too.

Think for yourself once in a while. Following shit like this is no better than following the masses, which is exactly what you seem to be against.

That website only challenges the religious statements that ZeitGeits does. Not the rest of the movie.

Following the masses is fail BIG TIME. If 1000 people are making a silly thing, IT IS STILL BEING A SILLY THING.

If masses were always right, then it wouldn't be wars. Everybody would be "rich", and stuff. People who is now in the power to give you orders I can guarantee you that they didn't follow the masses.

Now, about religion, I give a damn about if those facts are real or not. Think this: If God created Earth, then who in the heck created him? That's a never-ending chain of gods.

s0iz wrote:

voxtex wrote:http://zeitgeistchallenge.com/

I can post links too.

Think for yourself once in a while. Following shit like this is no better than following the masses, which is exactly what you seem to be against.

That website only challenges the religious statements that ZeitGeits does. Not the rest of the movie.

Following the masses is fail BIG TIME. If 1000 people are making a silly thing, IT IS STILL BEING A SILLY THING.

Well why not start with the first claims in the movie? The movie just spans so many different conspiracy theories to try to debunk all of them is simply ridiculous.

All Valar did was post a link and offer no input of his own. I simply tried to do the same to prove a point. Make your own decisions and get your own information about everything. Especially crazy shit like this. Don't look at biased resources and try to get all sides of the story before coming to a conclusion. It is really easy to skew information in a certain direction based on a predetermined position. Doing this on either side (conspiracy theory or government lemming) is just as bad and I ridicule both equally.

titling someting Conspiracy serves only to blur its meaning. as does all titling.
what i did was to post this important movie up for ppl to watch. nasty shit is been carried through by a few people in this world and it should get the majority's attention.

[EYE] Valar wrote:titling someting Conspiracy serves only to blur its meaning. as does all titling.
what i did was to post this important movie up for ppl to watch. nasty shit is been carried through by a few people in this world and it should get the majority's attention.

and its a crying damn shame people stay asleep and bark off that its just
a conspiracy.........................



but this is why they say conspiracy.....because Val........they are asleep

the most proved way to disarm someone's words is by dissecting what they say into titles / catagories. The reader / crowd then looks at the titles and stops noticing the MEANING of the words.

voxtex wrote:

s0iz wrote:

voxtex wrote:http://zeitgeistchallenge.com/

I can post links too.

Think for yourself once in a while. Following shit like this is no better than following the masses, which is exactly what you seem to be against.

That website only challenges the religious statements that ZeitGeits does. Not the rest of the movie.

Following the masses is fail BIG TIME. If 1000 people are making a silly thing, IT IS STILL BEING A SILLY THING.

Well why not start with the first claims in the movie? The movie just spans so many different conspiracy theories to try to debunk all of them is simply ridiculous.

All Valar did was post a link and offer no input of his own. I simply tried to do the same to prove a point. Make your own decisions and get your own information about everything. Especially crazy shit like this. Don't look at biased resources and try to get all sides of the story before coming to a conclusion. It is really easy to skew information in a certain direction based on a predetermined position. Doing this on either side (conspiracy theory or government lemming) is just as bad and I ridicule both equally.

I read a lot about history, but modern books with a history more updated. Not those school books that says the Germans are bad and evil, the Allies were good and kindful.

Now, these books are made by professional historians that work by researching and researching very hard. I don't have time nor access to secret files, you know? So how in the hell do you want be to get my own information? I trust in certain authors.

badinfluence wrote:

Can I have some of this? Need some for the Pomp thread too i'm all out :'(

Edge wrote:

badinfluence wrote:

Can I have some of this? Need some for the Pomp thread too i'm all out :'(

I brought more.

It's fresh.

And my stock in popcorn just doubled its value...woot!

badinfluence wrote:

Edge wrote:

badinfluence wrote:

Can I have some of this? Need some for the Pomp thread too i'm all out :'(

I brought more.

It's fresh.

<3 now teh edges has some



yumm. gonna bring the second bag to pomps thread later tonight.

and back on topic.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?com ... &ct=title#

Valar, instead of posting in a forum where nobody really gives a shit about conspiracies, check out this forum:

http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=91

Not even just that specific sub-forum, but any of them on that website. Make a post, detail your ideas, and you will have them critiqued. The people there are extremely knowledgeable on all topics and they even have a separate section specifically for 9/11 conspiracies.

I know you don't like having it called "conspiracy", but that's the easiest way to describe it at the moment. So like I said, if you really have a strong belief in these things, go ahead and discuss them in detail on those forums. Posting a link and nothing else contributes nothing.

Have some balls and also link to your post here so I can read some of the responses. Those people have done the research I don't have time to do. Man up.

I regularly visit those forums (not the conspiracy section) and trust me when I say there are a lot of smart people.

Voxtex,

even though the irrelevant and childish "man up" and "have some balls" remarks i still saw (i think) an honest attempt to convey something on your part.

So...

Thanks for the suggestion. i appreciate it. Really.

The reason i posted this here is simply to spread it wherever I can. The truth of the matter is that over half of the information you'll find in the area called Conspiracy Theories is nonsense but there is also consistent information to be found as well. Consistent in the sense you see it over and over again and backed up by more and more evidence. And that information is very important. to name just one; finding out that income tax is not backed up by any law including your own constitution would be something I’d find important but that's me. i support a family. Maybe teens living at their parents' house don't care about this, but i know not only teens visit this forum.

I strongly object a gaming community forum is not a place to voice opinions about world events and issues. There are people here just like there are people everywhere and many of them, thank god, actually read and think for themselves.
One of the biggest problems with this type of information is it attracts paranoids, angry kids and weirdoes...further giving it its fake appearance as not relevant.

I live in a one of the most misunderstood countries / areas of the world called Israel / Middle East. Every time I talk to an American who finds I’m from Israel I’m amazed to hear the amount of nonsense they've been fed about the subject. What people know about Israel is legendary at best.
Point is, ALL we are being fed through the media about the world surrounding us is all but lies and stories aimed to spin public views for political gains of governments. All governments.

I play games a LOT and spend a LOT of time online doing things related to gaming. And still read and think. Hope this message finds others who are the same.

Peace.

val

Again, not to be offending, but what do you do for money if you spend so much time online?

im a mosad agent

What i love about conspiracy theory IS the catch phrases and ambiguous words that themselves are supposed to convince. I have seen talk about Bilderburg" and "International Bankers" and "Freemasonry" and "Skull and crossbones"...

All these spooky and nefarious groups.
The question i always have is WHO are they?
What are their names?
What is the proof behind the nonsense?

Most of these conspiracies are so outlandish and ridiculous, starting with Atrology and tying in the Catholic church, freemasons, shadowy bankers, clandestine meeting...

I have seen a lot of 911 nonsense. Most of it is based on outright lies, such as phones don't work from planes (there are phone records of the microwave transmissions), bin Laden's flying out when the aircraft were grounded (the flight was vetted by the FBI and left AFTER flights resumed), the impossible collapse due to just the aircraft impact (engineers have debunked that), mysterious plumes that, of course, were caused by explosives (horseshit), 1000 Jews that were told ahead of time not to go to work (not one shred of evidence to support this), Israeli involvement (puuuhllleeeez, what would be the motivation for this?!?!?!), the hijackers don't exist (they are on tape getting on the flight and later there were farewell/celebration tapes unearthed)...

Its a lot of horseshit. Just nonsense to distract from real issues.

Truth is, government can hardly keep a secret. Conspiracies encompass too many people keeping secrets. Conspiracies take little facts and half truths and outright lies and string them along to ridiculous conclusions.

Conspiracy Theorists suffer from paranoia. I suppose that doesn't mean folks aren't out to get you though.

As far as World government? Duhhhhhhhh, every progressive/liberal weinee College freshman indulges this stupidity, along with the EU and UN. Not much of a conspiracy when it is right out on the open.
Maybe folks could channel that energy into critical thinking and what a central world power would actually mean.
Permanent omnipotently powerful tyranny.

Maybe folks could channel that energy into critical thinking and what a central world power would actually mean.
Permanent omnipotently powerful tyranny.

that's the whole point here

and as for

All these spooky and nefarious groups.
The question i always have is WHO are they?
What are their names?
What is the proof behind the nonsense?

read

http://www.scribd.com/doc/5014096/The-A ... Conspiracy

No intelligent person should believe everything they read out right. Everything should be scrutinized and turned and turned again in order to come up with any form of "truth".
Keeping an open mind is not just a banal slogan. It is an approach.


val

i lasted 31 seconds.

then i read a book.

Well, frankly i am confused. Are you a conspiracy theorist or not? Why would i even read that Atlantean whatever nonsense. I don't believe in any of this conspiracy/bloodline/Illuminati nonsense and no amount of articles written by whoever featuring ridiculous and outlandish Atlantis/Ancient Egypt/Tri-Lateral Commission/Bilderburg/Truther/Skull and Bones Hollywood Fiction nonsense is going to convince me.

There is no withholding of vital info in today's world.
I do not HAVE this important truth because it is nonsense, not because my mind is closed or you have a monopoly on skepticism or critical thinking.

The world doesn't work like any of these conspiracies claim.

Let me clarify that: The reason i do not subscribe to these theories is not a matter of my closed mind, a withholding or burying of "Unearthed Truths", a lack of critical thinking, being a sleeping sheep, a lack of skepticism, my apathy, my ignorance...
I don't subscribe because its all Bullshit.

And i can debunk the whole lot easily with common sense.

And by the way, the Bush hand gesture is the Texas Longhorn!
Most of the rest are photoshopped nonsense.
Nobody in a secret society walks around making their secret gesture in Public like that.
Its ridiculous.
I can't tell if Val subscribes to this stuff or is mocking it?!?!?

Edit: I guess the Phillip of Macedonia/Charlemagne bloodline just died with Obama.
End of that conspiracy.

Another thing: Look at the photo of Maria Shriver and Arnold at their wedding. Does it look like she is making a horn hand gesture or perhaps she is waving using two of her fingers like most people do at times?
Easy explanation, they are waving and the camera caught that frame and folks use this canard to build more bullshit.

[EYE] Valar wrote:Voxtex,
I live in a one of the most misunderstood countries / areas of the world called Israel / Middle East. Every time I talk to an American who finds I’m from Israel I’m amazed to hear the amount of nonsense they've been fed about the subject. What people know about Israel is legendary at best.
Point is, ALL we are being fed through the media about the world surrounding us is all but lies and stories aimed to spin public views for political gains of governments. All governments.
val

Invert 'America' and 'Isreal' in what you said and take 'Israel' to mean Europeans/Middle Easterners in general and I can say about the same thing here.

The thing about the media works both ways as well. You're correct in saying there's a spin and bias on everything. Objectivity in the News is bullshit at its finest as far as I'm concerned. But you think that 'media', a variety of people from any and all backgrounds has to do their spinning for 'political gains of government'? And which government? The media is too general and large for any motive in their biases not to be equally general and large. Money is equally general and large. If their check is dependant on ratings or subscribers, then the stories have to hype people up and make the streets run with blood, or stalk celebrities like anybody gives a shit so that people will watch. There is more misinformation in the media than anywhere. But no, the 'media' isn't controled by any interest group, in governement or otherwise, and can't be. So few people controlling so many people would have all the display of a monarch and wouldn't slip by behind the scenes.

Most of the resentment against banks and the federal reserve is understandable. But again it isn't some kind of subterfuge to aliens or anything else. It's simply people's usery and the creation of money that doesn't exist. People's greed causes most of these problems.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again - MOST of the information you will find going to Conspiracy Theorists websites or YouTube vids is mixed up, off or intentionally inserted to further blur the ALREADY blurred subject.
That as far as finding inconsistencies in the materials. You will. assload.

As far as how to tell WTF from LOL in the media, internet, vids?... I use my common sense.

A short story about Opened Mind

I was strongly against Conspiracy Theory stories and website altogether and mocked it as do most people. Well...most intelligent people anyway
until recently while babysitting long nights I would watch TV , mostly history programs about that war or this leader of the past or some king of old or about the birth of this or that nation...you know..
During a period of well over a year, being a thinking person, i started realizing that all (or most) of the information about everything is always freely available DURING the actual event to all (in modern times) but is being widely ignored(!!!) and those who have the courage (or the lack of life) to say "Hey everybody, look at what is REALLY going on here”) are in ALL cases booed off the stage. Today’s Conspiracy are yesterday’s Traitors or Fools.
Then...an interesting thing happens - Time goes by. and the information and opinions once held by a fool is now held by public (again, the READING, THINKING public), and the subject is being written about by authors, historians, philosophers and so on and is referenced as a known and SOLID fact.
Time seems to help us digest information that is so overwhelming, so encompassing, so worrying.


1943
Rumor: Jews are being persecuted and murdered all around the world.
Public reaction: nonsense.

At a point in time…people were burned at the stake for claiming the earth is round or for claiming the demons who bring disease are actually microscopic creatures called Virus.

I just wish you don’t brows through an article or video just to come up with points to counter the other opinion but actually “go there” and listen.



val

Well you can trace all kinds of ancestry back as far as you can and it still doesnt prove anything.
American Presidents are elected and not chosen.
Militant Islamofascists attacked us on 911.
They did so in Spain, Indonesia, London, Mumbai and elsewhere.
This stuff about all the Presidents being related isn't even true.
Don't presume because others do not buy this nonsense that they are not aware of Alex Jones and others and the information "they" supposedly have.
I didn't just glance at anything. I read it all and its nonsense.

I have been hearing this conspiracy nonsense for 30 years and most all of it doesn't pan out.
Now, if you want to make the case our media has reached an all time low, is crap and shape events according to their bias, i buy into that.

And as i have already posted, the 911 truthers are nutbags and liars.
And i love all this talk in the ME about 'Zionism".
A Jewish conspiracy to rule the world.

You can look at a current map and see how that has failed.
Do you buy into that one?
All this stuff makes for good Hollywood fiction, like National Treasure and the Dan Brown books.

[EYE] Valar wrote:1943
Rumor: Jews are being persecuted and murdered all around the world.
Public reaction: nonsense.

All you said is true, except this. The "rumor" was a fact well known by most of country-leaders. They simply didn't care, and it was much before 43, during the 30s.

to soiz:
that is my point?
the PUBLIC didn't know. the LEADERS did.

i quote again

EYE] Valar wrote:1943
Rumor: Jews are being persecuted and murdered all around the world.
Public reaction: nonsense.

Public reaction. not leaders'.

to argumetalizer:

Well you can trace all kinds of ancestry back as far as you can and it still doesnt prove anything.

Of course it does. But that is not where the problem lies. Someone has a blue, green, red or purple blood is the least of my concerns.

American Presidents are elected and not chosen.

or are they? Do you know absolutely everything there is to know about the electoral process? Party funding? You know you don’t and you know you THINK you do. As do most people. But the fact remains – no one from outside this system knows how exactly things work IN the system. so…it might be that presidents are elected and it might be that they’re not. We do NOT know that for a fact. The mere existence for the doubt here is enough to warrant inspection…or at least..thought.

Militant Islamofascists attacked us on 911.

do you know that beyond any shadow of a doubt? What are your indisputable proofs? Please share them.

They did so in Spain, Indonesia, London, Mumbai and elsewhere.

you have not been to any of those places. Not seen first hand any of the alleged events and are fed by media for the breakdown. You and I know just about nothing on the subject.

This stuff about all the Presidents being related isn't even true.

Being a DNA specialist, having fully examined all lines? Please share results of the tests. Anycase, this is the same as the first paragraph I quoted of you, is not the case in question. A goat could have begot the lot of them for all I care.

If there is even the slightest of doubts about the way things are run, leadership level wise, we should look into it. It makes all the sense in the world that a lot of what we will find will be pure, partial or touched by bullshit but we cannot – cannot – throw it off and wave it like nothing. We simply do not have the luxury of nothing in stake here to do such things. Too much is in stake. If it is possible for groups or a group of super-rich people to control governments and even if the chip story is false we are still in a biatch of a situation here. All of us.

Do you believe your government? Everything they say? All or just some of it? And if only some of it…what makes you think you know all they know?

Israel is being run by the US. So my case is your case. Your “president” is mine also.
Take this another step further; the US president is not only North America’s but also Central and South America’s, The Middle East, a large portion of Asia, too many countries in Europe, so many countries in Africa…
Too much is in question here to ward it all off by “ah its bullshit. I have a sound mind and I think it’s crap”. That just won’t cut it.

You know me and you know I love you. I just find your waving off all this information in a huff to be a complete meh.

val

I get what you are saying Valar and I agree. It is sad how some people are so closed minded and so prone to believing that things just couldn't possibly be any different then they were brought up to believe. Things are not always as they seem people, wake up do some research for yourself, see the facts, see whats happening now, see how history has a tendency to repeat itself. Don't debunk something just because you don't want to believe it can be true and it does not stand up to your ideas of how great things are supposed to be.

Cornell West summed it up when asked if he believed in conspiracy theories:

i am opened to a coordinated activity in secret places. but i don't believe in conspiracy

Militant Islamofascists attacked us on 911.


if this is true ......how did they get in the building to wire
up all the explosives lol every floor has 1500 or so connectors
that had to be blown to drop the building in its own footprint

impossible to drop 2 huge buildings with mere planes i know for a fact
cause i build and have done much commercial construction.
i trust our government as far as i can throw a "state".

Quote:
"Well you can trace all kinds of ancestry back as far as you can and it still doesnt prove anything.

Of course it does. But that is not where the problem lies. Someone has a blue, green, red or purple blood is the least of my concerns."

Distant ancestry to others is not proof of something larger. that is plain logic.

Quote:
American Presidents are elected and not chosen.

"or are they? Do you know absolutely everything there is to know about the electoral process? Party funding? You know you don’t and you know you THINK you do. As do most people. But the fact remains – no one from outside this system knows how exactly things work IN the system. so…it might be that presidents are elected and it might be that they’re not. We do NOT know that for a fact. The mere existence for the doubt here is enough to warrant inspection…or at least..thought."

Actually, i do know quite a bit about the electoral process, having been an active member of my party for almost 30 years. The parties have candidates that run for the party nomination. The winner then goes on to the Primary. Are you saying that is NOT how it works? If so, tell us how it does instead of challenging the conventional knowledge on this subject. Logically, you are the one saying it doesn't work that way, so the burden of proof is on you, not me.

Quote:
"Militant Islamofascists attacked us on 911.
do you know that beyond any shadow of a doubt? What are your indisputable proofs? Please share them."

Well there are Visa records, passport records, Saudi citizenship records, film of them boarding, ticket records, banking transfer records, in air witnessing by phone, hotel records, Flight training school records...

Well, you can see where that point is going.

Quote:
They did so in Spain, Indonesia, London, Mumbai and elsewhere.
you have not been to any of those places. Not seen first hand any of the alleged events and are fed by media for the breakdown. You and I know just about nothing on the subject.

There is a word for this kind of thinking. It is called solipsism, the idea that nothing exists outside of our own sensory perception. It is a form of insane skepticism. Although i lived in England, i do not need to in order to see the reports of the bombings there. You can always something never happened about anything, but you end up right back in solipsism, IE i you didn't see it personally, it didn't happen. And epistemologically and philosophically, this is false. I would have to think the entire British Government and hundreds of journals and newspapers are lying and made it up or changing what really happened. Again, it is too ridiculous to take seriously.


Quote:
"This stuff about all the Presidents being related isn't even true.
Being a DNA specialist, having fully examined all lines? Please share results of the tests. Anycase, this is the same as the first paragraph I quoted of you, is not the case in question. A goat could have begot the lot of them for all I care."

Again, you say it is true, therefore you have the burden of proof. The real question is where is YOUR DNA tests to back this up. You seem to by into an article, the very same thing you are telling others not to buy, because it is media distortion or lies. Well, you should be consistent and not act like you have the facts and i don't, when it is actually the other way around. It is this illogical argument that is the hallmark of Conspiracy theories. It goes like this: Don't believe what you read in the media- believe the media i have for you to read.

"If there is even the slightest of doubts about the way things are run, leadership level wise, we should look into it. It makes all the sense in the world that a lot of what we will find will be pure, partial or touched by bullshit but we cannot – cannot – throw it off and wave it like nothing. We simply do not have the luxury of nothing in stake here to do such things. Too much is in stake. If it is possible for groups or a group of super-rich people to control governments and even if the chip story is false we are still in a biatch of a situation here. All of us.'

Skepticism of government is the entire basis for America and is very healthy. Extreme nihilism is not healthy.

"Do you believe your government? Everything they say? All or just some of it? And if only some of it…what makes you think you know all they know?"

Not believing everything politicians say is not the same thing as believing nothing they say. And are you talking about believing government or media or both?
Am i supposed to disbelieve hundreds of reports and sources on one event and believe some wacky theory sight instead? Here, common sense goes along way.

"Israel is being run by the US. So my case is your case. Your “president” is mine also.
Take this another step further; the US president is not only North America’s but also Central and South America’s, The Middle East, a large portion of Asia, too many countries in Europe, so many countries in Africa…
Too much is in question here to ward it all off by “ah its bullshit. I have a sound mind and I think it’s crap”. That just won’t cut it."

This does not compute. All other states have their own governments and leaders. Our President is no one else' President. Disagreements between countries on events from Kyoto to Iraq to trade bear this out. Is the US influential? Of course, we produce 25% of all the goods and services in the world and contribute billions to Israel, Pakistan, Africa... a fact that we should change if folks are ungrateful.

"You know me and you know I love you. I just find your waving off all this information in a huff to be a complete meh."

Same here, but i did not wave anything off. I have posted all the problems and all my reasons. They either make sense or don't, so i'll leave it at that. Yes i said some things are BS, but i have made more effort than that.

[KBH]Tazzer wrote:Militant Islamofascists attacked us on 911.


if this is true ......how did they get in the building to wire
up all the explosives lol every floor has 1500 or so connectors
that had to be blown to drop the building in its own footprint

impossible to drop 2 huge buildings with mere planes i know for a fact
cause i build and have done much commercial construction.
i trust our government as far as i can throw a "state".

Mere planes? A 747 fully loaded with high explosive jet fuel weighs 450 tons.
That is a giant missile. Its amazing they stayed up that long.

The WTC was not designed to take the hit of a 747 fully loaded with jetfuel.
They were built in the 70's.
Notice the tower that fell first was the second tower, which was hit lower than the first.
20-30 floors of weight and weakened and/or damaged steel, did the job.
The sheer vibration of the first collapse contributed to the second.
I have not seen one report by expert engineers that contradicts this view.

I have also not seen any reports of names of individuals who actually did set explosives in the towers.
So, who did, if it happened? And why is that more plausible than obviously happened?

The Argumentalizer wrote:

[KBH]Tazzer wrote:Militant Islamofascists attacked us on 911.


if this is true ......how did they get in the building to wire
up all the explosives lol every floor has 1500 or so connectors
that had to be blown to drop the building in its own footprint

impossible to drop 2 huge buildings with mere planes i know for a fact
cause i build and have done much commercial construction.
i trust our government as far as i can throw a "state".

Mere planes? A 747 fully loaded with high explosive jet fuel weighs 450 tons.
That is a giant missile. Its amazing they stayed up that long.

The WTC was not designed to take the hit of a 747 fully loaded with jetfuel.
They were built in the 70's.
Notice the tower that fell first was the second tower, which was hit lower than the first.
20-30 floors of weight and weakened and/or damaged steel, did the job.
The sheer vibration of the first collapse contributed to the second.
I have not seen one report by expert engineers that contradicts this view.

I have also not seen any reports of names of individuals who actually did set explosives in the towers.
So, who did, if it happened? And why is that more plausible than obviously happened?

money what else? and the buildings were made to withstand planes flying into them.
and jet fuel burns faster then reg gas, no melt down theories here.

how can 2 different buildings fall in its own footprint accidentally??
just like a demolition??

they couldnt.

Impala,
I bet you think our government told us the whole truth and nothing but the truth about Veitnam, and the media was able to report events exactly as they happened when they happened.
Yes/NO?

Oh and BTW I have seen many engineers comments (and know 4 personally) who say that the planes could never have brought the buildings down, nor could the fires. Kinda funny how all those support columns and center supports were sliced at near perfect 45 degree angles too wouldnt you say? Oh wait you may not have seen that since our government destroyed all the evidence without letting too much of it get out.

Oh and I did see a interview with the engineer who designed the WTC and he did infact say they were designed to withstand planes hitting them.

Here's an opinion from Val#2, a political science major. Nothing when it comes to this topic is a black and white yes or no. This exists, this doesn't. Politicians on the upper level are a mixture of both elected and chosen officials, people who over time have been strained and restrained through various processes to ensure the basic interests and goals of the federal government are not jeopardized. Barack Obama while I voted for him is a perfect example of a politician who was both chosen and elected. He was a man who was unique, a human postmodern mosaic with tremendous oratory and political skills who won fame and the presidency not only by his charisma and willingness to play political hardball, but also more importantly perhaps the propping up by the international media and in the very beginning of his campaign large individual money donations that remain unnamed and secretive, which later turned into mostly small donations by millions of people, more appropriately. Also, lending of money by institutions such as the World Bank to third world and lesser financial countries, are equilivant to a centuries old Sicilian Mafia technique of planned bankruptcy. The loaning of vast sums of a money to a poorer country that was destined to go into debt through this loan, however once in debt and the loan money gone, these third world countries must comply to directives that are typically Western and U.S. favored policies or else the particular country will see an end to it's loans and remain in debted even if decides to no longer participate in the World Bank. I could write a 5 page paper but my father is a subcontractor to federal intelligence agencies and all I can say is, you have to be naive, blissfully stupid or intentionally kept in the dark to think organizations such as the CIA don't create clandestine operations that prop up dictators to serve business interests, or create and fund terrorist organizations that not only serve here and now purposes to battle an opposing terrorist organization, but also serve to create an excuse to later enter the country in the name of democracy but also serve moreso in the name of empire building and resource control.

I guess my point is to take these videos with a grain of salt, some of the things in there should be taken with a grain of salt, some of it is sensationalized, whipped up into a dark conspiracy. If there is a world government, it's more like a Western world government, and I find it extremely hard to believe that the west does not coordinate with it's fellow western alliances and plan out things that would ensure future control and discuss collectively nuetralizing threats to the collectives power, it's not a conspiracy just natural.

[EYE] Valar wrote:to soiz:
that is my point?
the PUBLIC didn't know. the LEADERS did.

i quote again

Rumor: Jews are being persecuted and murdered all around the world.
Public reaction: nonsense.

Public reaction. not leaders'.

I think you make all 'leaders' like they're able to control, guide the masses, and know everything that's going on like some sort of omniscent being. If you're talking about Roosevelt, he was doing the best he could to keep Britian alive with his lend/lease, but even he wouldn't think about going to war at a time when 80% of the American people were against it. Mothers Againts the War was going on and all of that. And what was Britain to do? they were getting bombed nightly by the Luftwaffe. At a time of war, when leaders get all sorts of information from all directions, you have to set priorities. And even if there is information about jews getting fried alive, as horrible as that is, what exactly can be done about it when all the other horrors of war going on, and there's a public against any involvement in it?

[EYE] Valar wrote:

Militant Islamofascists attacked us on 911.

do you know that beyond any shadow of a doubt? What are your indisputable proofs? Please share them.

The problem with conspiracies is that they thrive on the everyday notion that in order for an event to have actually happened, there must be 'indisputible facts' with no contradictions. There's a real naivete in expecting either one. When any event happens it can only be described. The descriptions come from anyone and everyone who interpret the events and describe them. Anyone listening then need to interpret those descriptions. You won't believe in indisputible fact anymore after you've examined the preceeding sentences.

[EYE] Valar wrote:

They did so in Spain, Indonesia, London, Mumbai and elsewhere.

you have not been to any of those places. Not seen first hand any of the alleged events and are fed by media for the breakdown. You and I know just about nothing on the subject.

If you need to see something first-hand to know it exists then what of Australia, does that exist? Have you been there? It could have been spun by the media to make money for the travel industry. People were taking cruises to Communist China all along when they thought it was a made-up fairyland called Australia they were going to.

But at least you see the extent that the media shapes our world view. Few people realize that the highly edited images repeated over and over again reveal almost nothing about being at the actual event itself. But you're going off the deep end. Baudrillard denied that the Gulf War ever occured (and i agreed when i read his reaasons) but even he wouldn't go so far to think there are a select few human beings behind the scenes controlling this facade we call life. Human beings aren't so in control of themselves or their own destinies as that.

[EYE] Valar wrote:

This stuff about all the Presidents being related isn't even true.

Being a DNA specialist, having fully examined all lines? Please share results of the tests. Anycase, this is the same as the first paragraph I quoted of you, is not the case in question. A goat could have begot the lot of them for all I care.

The thought over the last 50 years or so is that everything can be broken down into information. This information can be accessed by everyone, especially now with the Internet. It wouldn't surprise me at all if people used DNA science to show a link between every president and Charlemagne. What would that really mean though? It would mean that there are Adenines, Thymines, Guanines, and/ or Cytosines that happen to coincide with one another. So what would that mean? That might mean we're all human and so will have like sequences in everyone. It might mean we really don't know enough about DNA as we thought. It might mean that people who are confident in DNA's ability to chart recent bloodlines have doubts about its abilities to chart long past ones. It might even mean that in point of fact every president has an actual blood relation to Chalemagne. But even then it doesn't have to mean that the masons are living in tunnels under the white house. It might validate the notion of Divine Right itself, that there's something to it just as was thought about Monarchs and Aristocrats before the Enlightenment. There are many possibilities, better ones you can come up with yourself.

[EYE] Valar wrote: If there is even the slightest of doubts about the way things are run, leadership level wise, we should look into it.

That's a big Fuck Yeah from me.

[EYE] Valar wrote:Do you believe your government? Everything they say? All or just some of it? And if only some of it…what makes you think you know all they know?

Again, you tend to think the government is like one guy and everybody follows him or else. The government is a collection of too many different kinds of people to name, who constantly fight over what should and should not be done over the country it governs. Of couse there are always issues that get divided into two sides, those for and against. I understand parties will take one side or the other. But all the same maybe change your thinking a bit. If you hear/read a person's opinion, ask yourself if you believe in him or her and question what he or she really knows. Same with a party line. Ask yourself if a person is being honest with a desision or if he or she is just following the partyline. Ask yourself these same things.


This text is now available in Paperback. Hours of reading. Call 555 555-5556 today.

Ok there're too many points and remarks to things I've said to start quoting each and comment on each. so without further a-quote;


#1 - i DO NOT believe everything every conspiracy theorists throws at me. i never said i did and actually said it out right from the beginning - SOME things are enough to warrant THOUGHT. so re all the "so do you believe this and do you believe that". no. i don't. i just KNOW most of what i see in the media usually doesn't add up. and in cases, i admit, it just doesn't seem to "click" with me. i mean, it's like when you talk to someone and you get the sense he's lying or hiding something?.. same thing.
I don't listen to that person again.

#2 - Burden of proof is not on either of us. WE (citizens) don't NEED to prove anything to anyone. the approach i took was clearly making a point - don't rule out just because something seems too far fetched. nothing more. nothing less.

#3 - How the electoral process is actually done and how presidents come to power is again, the same thing...I do not know it but i know enough about life to know that people INSIDE organizations do not know shit about the true aim of the whole "pyramid" if you will. this is just how life is. the same mechanism that makes big organizations work is the same mechanism that can be used to withhold truths.

#4 - My comment regarding "actually being in places to know the true account of events" was the same as #1 and 2 - my point was simple: we know what happened, how it happened and who did and why through a channel which we all by now agree to be false. False in the sense it's not pure, untouched and safe. Media is a money making business. not a service to the public. it never was. So coming from someone who's living in a country over saturated with suicide bombing incidents, you can trust the calling - take a step back and don't believe what the media tells you. NOTHING ever happens the way you are being reported about it. be it in far off countries or right next door.

#5 - 911. Oh how i love this one. ok. let's say NONE of the conspiracy theories are true. and what the official reports claim to have happened really did. ok?
Now. what DID happened SINCE 911? let's see:

A. War on Iraq in false (ok i'm sorry, erroneous) claims. in any case - no match for the US. so not War but an Assault. Wars cost money. a LOT of money. How much did this war cost? who paid it and TO WHOM?
B. War on Afghanistan in false (yeah i know,,,.... sorry, erroneous) claims. Again - no match for the US. so not War. Assault. And...same as above...the war costs issue. who benefits from both these wars?
C. Homeland Security Act - literally robbing each and every citizen of the United States of America of not only their constitutional rights but also their basic human rights. your phones tapped at a clerks' whim. you can be arrested without warrant for an unlimited period of time. Your House, Possessions and Property searched and confiscated. BY LAW! You, my friends, are fucking rag dolls now do you realize that.
Oh, and then there's the disturbing problem of motive; if it's not for actual "homeland security" then why? ahh nah that's can't be any of those stupid conspiracy theories, right?. THEY can't be right. just too far out and ridiculous.

So ok...the Bush administration DIDN'T plan 911. let's cut him even more slack and say he simply jumped on the wagon. Is he less a demon if he DIDN'T PLAN AND CARRY OUT the murder but nonetheless DRANK THE BLOOD?
Were the administrations at the time of the Vietnam war better???? what wagon did THEY jump on?

No, i don't believe the leadership is, as some here suggested, divided, scattered, one goes this way and the other that. those pushing here and the others push there. i do not believe it one bit. I see a cohesive, unified, one minded and brutally checked line of black boots. And Yes! I mean Nazi boots.

How many freaking lives of men, women and children will be taken until people realize these regimes are out right evil?!!! not confused. not retarded. not humanly erroneous. EVIL. fuck royal bloodlines, fuck DNA proof. and fuck scrutiny. shit is going down and is STILL going down as we speak. they will get the soldiers out of Iraq by DEC 2010??? Orly? Who writes this stuff?

I'll share?

i want to clarify,
i didn't mean to spread hate in my post. i did mean to clearly express my personal feelings and chose not to be PC about it.
and BI, thanks for the reality check

awesome reading guys now if you'll hop on my site
cause i would love to see this debate continue


>>>>http://www.freewebs.com/tazzer/<<<<

and no! i feel no shame for plugging this lol

[EYE] Valar wrote:i want to clarify,
i didn't mean to spread hate in my post. i did mean to clearly express my personal feelings and chose not to be PC about it.
and BI, thanks for the reality check

Oh, lol. I was just reading while eating my popcorn. You can continue. : )

badinfluence wrote:

[EYE] Valar wrote:i want to clarify,
i didn't mean to spread hate in my post. i did mean to clearly express my personal feelings and chose not to be PC about it.
and BI, thanks for the reality check

Oh, lol. I was just reading while eating my popcorn. You can continue. : )

yes please continue lol

well...you know...a thousand bad influences can't fill this forum with popcorn.

[EYE] Valar wrote:well...you know...a thousand bad influences can't fill this forum with popcorn.

L2k wrote:Impala,
I bet you think our government told us the whole truth and nothing but the truth about Veitnam, and the media was able to report events exactly as they happened when they happened.
Yes/NO?

Oh and BTW I have seen many engineers comments (and know 4 personally) who say that the planes could never have brought the buildings down, nor could the fires. Kinda funny how all those support columns and center supports were sliced at near perfect 45 degree angles too wouldnt you say? Oh wait you may not have seen that since our government destroyed all the evidence without letting too much of it get out.

Oh and I did see a interview with the engineer who designed the WTC and he did infact say they were designed to withstand planes hitting them.

Well i don't understand your point about the government. I never said the government should be trusted. I was responding to a Conspiracy website that has nothing to do with the government. I am as skeptical of Conspiracy Theories as i am of the government, and that is my point. Folks say don't believe anything you see and then ask you to. As far as engineering and the WTC, who do you think planted explosives? If some of you believe a fully loaded 450 ton jet did not do it, then who and what did? Answer it. If the government planted explosives in order to kill 3000 American (which is ridiculous tin foil mania), what about the Hijackers and all the evidence pointing to Al Qida?
Did the government know ahead of time, plant explosives, time it exactly as the jets hit...
Whatever. Its ridiculous. The simplest explanation, the one that most ALL the evidence points to, is what really happened.
have you heard of the 911 Commission?

If you or anybody else knows something and really has evidence (who, what where how) please tel;l everybody.
Otherwise, don't make false and outlandish allegations.

Yes the towers were built to sustain an impact of a smaller jet, but was not designed to withstand a fully loaded 747.

Edit: Better yet, yes im a dumbass conservative who thinks the government tells us everything.
And George Bush planted explosives in the WTC. And there are no Islamists that want us dead and Bin Laden and 19 hijackers are fiction. And a 450 ton missile loaded with Jet fuel couldn't possibly bring down a 110 floor building. Why that should survive an A bomb.
And a shadowy evil 3000 year old plot to dominate the world is manipulating my dumbass behind the scenes.
Its the Masons, the Illuminati, the Tri-Lateral Commission, the fucking DaVinci Code and the Three Days of the Condor...and some faceless nameless international bankers behind all the wars.

Thats right. You folks are right. Have a nice day.

[EYE] Valar wrote:well...you know...a thousand bad influences can't fill this forum with popcorn.

I'm sure I could try.

The Argumentalizer wrote:

L2k wrote:Impala,
I bet you think our government told us the whole truth and nothing but the truth about Veitnam, and the media was able to report events exactly as they happened when they happened.
Yes/NO?

Oh and BTW I have seen many engineers comments (and know 4 personally) who say that the planes could never have brought the buildings down, nor could the fires. Kinda funny how all those support columns and center supports were sliced at near perfect 45 degree angles too wouldnt you say? Oh wait you may not have seen that since our government destroyed all the evidence without letting too much of it get out.

Oh and I did see a interview with the engineer who designed the WTC and he did infact say they were designed to withstand planes hitting them.

Well i don't understand your point about the government. I never said the government should be trusted. I was responding to a Conspiracy website that has nothing to do with the government. I am as skeptical of Conspiracy Theories as i am of the government, and that is my point. Folks say don't believe anything you see and then ask you to. As far as engineering and the WTC, who do you think planted explosives? If some of you believe a fully loaded 450 ton jet did not do it, then who and what did? Answer it. If the government planted explosives in order to kill 3000 American (which is ridiculous tin foil mania), what about the Hijackers and all the evidence pointing to Al Qida?
Did the government know ahead of time, plant explosives, time it exactly as the jets hit...
Whatever. Its ridiculous. The simplest explanation, the one that most ALL the evidence points to, is what really happened.
have you heard of the 911 Commission?

If you or anybody else knows something and really has evidence (who, what where how) please tel;l everybody.
Otherwise, don't make false and outlandish allegations.

Yes the towers were built to sustain an impact of a smaller jet, but was not designed to withstand a fully loaded 747.

Edit: Better yet, yes im a dumbass conservative who thinks the government tells us everything.
And George Bush planted explosives in the WTC. And there are no Islamists that want us dead and Bin Laden and 19 hijackers are fiction. And a 450 ton missile loaded with Jet fuel couldn't possibly bring down a 110 floor building. Why that should survive an A bomb.
And a shadowy evil 3000 year old plot to dominate the world is manipulating my dumbass behind the scenes.
Its the Masons, the Illuminati, the Tri-Lateral Commission, the fucking DaVinci Code and the Three Days of the Condor...and some faceless nameless international bankers behind all the wars.

Thats right. You folks are right. Have a nice day.

Just to clarify:
who planted them ....jackals.

our people trained them to fly into building, our govnt sent
jackals to set up the demo,(and it was not timed with the impact of the
planes,it happened way after that(in terms of explosives)).


3000 hehe we've killed many many more than that (and dont forget the four thousand
plus soldiers who died for what exactly???).


Al Qida
there is no Al Qida.


"Yes the towers were built to sustain an impact of a smaller jet"

no they were built to sustain a jumbo jet or if you will a 747 (the fully loaded
fuel compartment is irrelevant)


and no your are not a dumbass at all, and i promise we dont believe you are at all.

and no its not a 3000 year old "plot"

its a 21-22,000 year old plan


im tired

I just want to say that I like the use of the word folks.

Clint Eastwood says folks in "The Unforgiven", along with the use of "such".
The language made a huge impression on me and i have used both words ever since.

"Writer of books and such"

Since i am a mix of Northern in your face and Southern manners, and i love the language, i continue to use these words.

The language means so much to me. I seem to pine for the yesterdays when folks had such a command of the language. The British and earlier Americans, now they knew how to turn a phrase ans use language.
All this leads to things i regret. The coarseness and illiteracy of the internet is regrettable and intolerable.
The butchering of civilization's progress, visa vi the lost nuances of our language, give way to things like instant worldwide communications and DM! So, i reconcile the loss with the gain but continue to be me.
And i love HL2DM a little too much.

I dont necessarily believe everything the government tells me either and I make my living questioning and analyzing most of the world around me. I too have watched a ton of documentaries, read a bunch and seen lot of other things regarding the events of 911. 747s did not exist when the towers were built, the engineers and builders built them to withstand what currently was the largest commecial airliner at that time, which iirc was a 727, a much smaller jet.

Do you realize how many explosives it would have taken them to drag into both towers and how long it would have taken them to drag all that into BOTH towers not to mention a few other smaller buildings around the towers. A long ass time and more than a few TONS of explosives. Also why the hell bother hijacking at least 4 airliners if all they had to do was sit back, have a smoke and push a button. And they would have had to have access to the areas inside the walls to plant explosives on the steel supports like you are suggesting. Think someone would have noticed all the holes they made in the walls to do that.

Oh and what happened at the Pentagon? You mean to tell me a bunch of Iraqis snuck into the PENTAGON and set explosives...come on! And I guess what happened on the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania was all made up too?

Much of the steel from the towers was bent and twisted as if it had been softened by intense heat caused by the fire. I dont recall anyone discussing that the steel was sheered off at perfect 45 degree angles. None of the pieces of it that I personally saw showed anything of that sort, not that I saw all of it, but what I did see was consistent with what was described in numerous places.

The U.S. governement was too damn busy making sure we werent going to get attacked again and too damn busy dealing with the aftermath of what happened to be organized enough to come up with some highly coordinated story and coverup of what happened.

Now that is some common sense!

apparently some of you have not ACTUALLY watched the so called conspiracy movies and other documentaries, which question the events as they have been reported, and present evidence to the contrary. Otherwise you would have seen this information, such as the many steel members cut at perfect 45 degree angles, which BTW is exactly how they look when a building has been demolished by explosives.
The 911 commission was a joke, a massive cover up of information. Now the question is did that information get covered up to hide that fact that our government was involved or was it to hide the fact that our own security was so bad that so called terrorists were actually able to plant explosives as well to insure success? I don't know personally, I just know I'm not buying into the story that has been told.

L2k wrote:apparently some of you have not ACTUALLY watched the so called conspiracy movies and other documentaries, which question the events as they have been reported, and present evidence to the contrary. Otherwise you would have seen this information, such as the many steel members cut at perfect 45 degree angles, which BTW is exactly how they look when a building has been demolished by explosives.
The 911 commission was a joke, a massive cover up of information. Now the question is did that information get covered up to hide that fact that our government was involved or was it to hide the fact that our own security was so bad that so called terrorists were actually able to plant explosives as well to insure success? I don't know personally, I just know I'm not buying into the story that has been told.

Produce it! Bring it! Telll us. Post it right here!
Right here.
Post your "credible' and "Expert" testimony as to how it is impossible to bring down a 40 yearold 119 story building by plowing a 450 ton explosive missile inot it!
Produce the names of the perps?!?!
Prove the 911 commish is a joke!!
Show ANY evidence the WTC fell besides what we saw!!
Do it!
You talk a lot of shit but are short on the real stuff.
You are venting a lot a of UNSUBSTANTIATED BULLSHIT!
So POST IT PUNK!!
Right now

This sort of paranoid opinionated Bullshit is what i am against.
Is there ant proof to any of this?
I think not.
Prove it or shut your fucking trap!
Im tired of this malarkey i think therefore it is bullshit.

That is the real problem here: A lot of talk and conjecture and not enough REAL!~
Bullshit is signified by the lack of substantiation.
So, tell us who, what, when, where, how the 911 attacks happened!.

BRING IT!

National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) Federal Building and Fire Safety Investigation of the World Trade Center Disaster

Answers to Frequently Asked Questions (August 30, 2006)

(NIST NCSTAR throughout this document refers to one of the 43 volumes that comprise NIST’s final report on the WTC Towers issued in October 2005. All sections of the report listed in this document are available at http://wtc.nist.gov.)

1. If the World Trade Center (WTC) towers were designed to withstand multiple impacts by Boeing 707 aircraft, why did the impact of individual 767s cause so much damage?

As stated in Section 5.3.2 of NIST NCSTAR 1, a document from the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey (PANYNJ) indicated that the impact of a [single, not multiple] Boeing 707 aircraft was analyzed during the design stage of the WTC towers. However, NIST investigators were unable to locate any documentation of the criteria and method used in the impact analysis and, therefore, were unable to verify the assertion that “… such collision would result in only local damage which could not cause collapse or substantial damage to the building.…”

The capability to conduct rigorous simulations of the aircraft impact, the growth and spread of the ensuing fires, and the effects of fires on the structure is a recent development. Since the approach to structural modeling was developed for the NIST WTC investigation, the technical capability available to the PANYNJ and its consultants and contactors to perform such analyses in the 1960s would have been quite limited in comparison to the capabilities brought to bear in the NIST investigation.

The damage from the impact of a Boeing 767 aircraft (which is about 20 percent bigger than a Boeing 707) into each tower is well documented in NCSTAR 1-2. The massive damage was caused by the large mass of the aircraft, their high speed and momentum, which severed the relatively light steel of the exterior columns on the impact floors. The results of the NIST impact analyses matched well with observations (from photos and videos and analysis of recovered WTC steel) of exterior damage and of the amount and location of debris exiting from the buildings. This agreement supports the premise that the structural damage to the towers was due to the aircraft impact and not to any alternative forces.

2. Why did NIST not consider a “controlled demolition” hypothesis with matching computer modeling and explanation as it did for the “pancake theory” hypothesis? A key critique of NIST’s work lies in the complete lack of analysis supporting a “progressive collapse” after the point of collapse initiation and the lack of consideration given to a controlled demolition hypothesis.

NIST conducted an extremely thorough three-year investigation into what caused the WTC towers to collapse, as explained in NIST’s dedicated Web site, http://wtc.nist.gov. This included consideration of a number of hypotheses for the collapses of the towers.

Some 200 technical experts—including about 85 career NIST experts and 125 leading experts from the private sector and academia—reviewed tens of thousands of documents, interviewed more than 1,000 people, reviewed 7,000 segments of video footage and 7,000 photographs, analyzed 236 pieces of steel from the wreckage, performed laboratory tests and sophisticated computer simulations of the sequence of events that occurred from the moment the aircraft struck the towers until they began to collapse.

Based on this comprehensive investigation, NIST concluded that the WTC towers collapsed because: (1) the impact of the planes severed and damaged support columns, dislodged fireproofing insulation coating the steel floor trusses and steel columns, and widely dispersed jet fuel over multiple floors; and (2) the subsequent unusually large jet-fuel ignited multi-floor fires (which reached temperatures as high as 1,000 degrees Celsius) significantly weakened the floors and columns with dislodged fireproofing to the point where floors sagged and pulled inward on the perimeter columns. This led to the inward bowing of the perimeter columns and failure of the south face of WTC 1 and the east face of WTC 2, initiating the collapse of each of the towers. Both photographic and video evidence—as well as accounts from the New York Police Department aviation unit during a half-hour period prior to collapse—support this sequence for each tower.

NIST’s findings do not support the “pancake theory” of collapse, which is premised on a progressive failure of the floor systems in the WTC towers (the composite floor system—that connected the core columns and the perimeter columns—consisted of a grid of steel “trusses” integrated with a concrete slab; see diagram below). Instead, the NIST investigation showed conclusively that the failure of the inwardly bowed perimeter columns initiated collapse and that the occurrence of this inward bowing required the sagging floors to remain connected to the columns and pull the columns inwards. Thus, the floors did not fail progressively to cause a pancaking phenomenon.
diagram of composit wtc floor system

Diagram of Composite WTC Floor System

NIST’s findings also do not support the “controlled demolition” theory since there is conclusive evidence that:

*

the collapse was initiated in the impact and fire floors of the WTC towers and nowhere else, and;

*

the time it took for the collapse to initiate (56 minutes for WTC 2 and 102 minutes for WTC 1) was dictated by (1) the extent of damage caused by the aircraft impact, and (2) the time it took for the fires to reach critical locations and weaken the structure to the point that the towers could not resist the tremendous energy released by the downward movement of the massive top section of the building at and above the fire and impact floors.

Video evidence also showed unambiguously that the collapse progressed from the top to the bottom, and there was no evidence (collected by NIST, or by the New York Police Department, the Port Authority Police Department or the Fire Department of New York) of any blast or explosions in the region below the impact and fire floors as the top building sections (including and above the 98th floor in WTC 1 and the 82nd floor in WTC 2) began their downward movement upon collapse initiation.

In summary, NIST found no corroborating evidence for alternative hypotheses suggesting that the WTC towers were brought down by controlled demolition using explosives planted prior to Sept. 11, 2001. NIST also did not find any evidence that missiles were fired at or hit the towers. Instead, photographs and videos from several angles clearly show that the collapse initiated at the fire and impact floors and that the collapse progressed from the initiating floors downward until the dust clouds obscured the view.

3. How could the WTC towers have collapsed without a controlled demolition since no steel-frame, high-rise buildings have ever before or since been brought down due to fires? Temperatures due to fire don't get hot enough for buildings to collapse.

The collapse of the WTC towers was not caused either by a conventional building fire or even solely by the concurrent multi-floor fires that day. Instead, NIST concluded that the WTC towers collapsed because: (1) the impact of the planes severed and damaged support columns, dislodged fireproofing insulation coating the steel floor trusses and steel columns, and widely dispersed jet fuel over multiple floors; and (2) the subsequent unusually large, jet-fuel ignited multi-floor fires weakened the now susceptible structural steel. No building in the United States has ever been subjected to the massive structural damage and concurrent multi-floor fires that the towers experienced on Sept. 11, 2001.

4. Weren't the puffs of smoke that were seen, as the collapse of each WTC tower starts, evidence of controlled demolition explosions?

No. As stated in Section 6.14.4 of NIST NCSTAR 1, the falling mass of the building compressed the air ahead of it—much like the action of a piston—forcing smoke and debris out the windows as the stories below failed sequentially.

These puffs were observed at many locations as the towers collapsed. In all cases, they had the appearance of jets of gas being pushed from the building through windows or between columns on the mechanical floors. Such jets are expected since the air inside the building is compressed as the tower falls and must flow somewhere as the pressure builds. It is significant that similar “puffs” were observed numerous times on the fire floors in both towers prior to their collapses, perhaps due to falling walls or portions of a floor. Puffs from WTC 1 were even observed when WTC 2 was struck by the aircraft. These observations confirm that even minor overpressures were transmitted through the towers and forced smoke and debris from the building.

5. Why were two distinct spikes—one for each tower—seen in seismic records before the towers collapsed? Isn't this indicative of an explosion occurring in each tower?

The seismic spikes for the collapse of the WTC Towers are the result of debris from the collapsing towers impacting the ground. The spikes began approximately 10 seconds after the times for the start of each building’s collapse and continued for approximately 15 seconds. There were no seismic signals that occurred prior to the initiation of the collapse of either tower. The seismic record contains no evidence that would indicate explosions occurring prior to the collapse of the towers.

6. How could the WTC towers collapse in only 11 seconds (WTC 1) and 9 seconds (WTC 2)—speeds that approximate that of a ball dropped from similar height in a vacuum (with no air resistance)?

NIST estimated the elapsed times for the first exterior panels to strike the ground after the collapse initiated in each of the towers to be approximately 11 seconds for WTC 1 and approximately 9 seconds for WTC 2. These elapsed times were based on: (1) precise timing of the initiation of collapse from video evidence, and (2) ground motion (seismic) signals recorded at Palisades, N.Y., that also were precisely time-calibrated for wave transmission times from lower Manhattan (see NCSTAR 1-5A).

As documented in Section 6.14.4 of NIST NCSTAR 1, these collapse times show that:

“… the structure below the level of collapse initiation offered minimal resistance to the falling building mass at and above the impact zone. The potential energy released by the downward movement of the large building mass far exceeded the capacity of the intact structure below to absorb that energy through energy of deformation.

Since the stories below the level of collapse initiation provided little resistance to the tremendous energy released by the falling building mass, the building section above came down essentially in free fall, as seen in videos. As the stories below sequentially failed, the falling mass increased, further increasing the demand on the floors below, which were unable to arrest the moving mass.”

In other words, the momentum (which equals mass times velocity) of the 12 to 28 stories (WTC 1 and WTC 2, respectively) falling on the supporting structure below (which was designed to support only the static weight of the floors above and not any dynamic effects due to the downward momentum) so greatly exceeded the strength capacity of the structure below that it (the structure below) was unable to stop or even to slow the falling mass. The downward momentum felt by each successive lower floor was even larger due to the increasing mass.

From video evidence, significant portions of the cores of both buildings (roughly 60 stories of WTC 1 and 40 stories of WTC 2) are known to have stood 15 to 25 seconds after collapse initiation before they, too, began to collapse. Neither the duration of the seismic records nor video evidence (due to obstruction of view caused by debris clouds) are reliable indicators of the total time it took for each building to collapse completely.

7a. How could the steel have melted if the fires in the WTC towers weren’t hot enough to do so?
OR
7b. Since the melting point of steel is about 2,700 degrees Fahrenheit, the temperature of jet fuel fires does not exceed 1,800 degrees Fahrenheit and Underwriters Laboratories (UL) certified the steel in the WTC towers to 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit for six hours, how could fires have impacted the steel enough to bring down the WTC towers?

In no instance did NIST report that steel in the WTC towers melted due to the fires. The melting point of steel is about 1,500 degrees Celsius (2,800 degrees Fahrenheit). Normal building fires and hydrocarbon (e.g., jet fuel) fires generate temperatures up to about 1,100 degrees Celsius (2,000 degrees Fahrenheit). NIST reported maximum upper layer air temperatures of about 1,000 degrees Celsius (1,800 degrees Fahrenheit) in the WTC towers (for example, see NCSTAR 1, Figure 6-36).

However, when bare steel reaches temperatures of 1,000 degrees Celsius, it softens and its strength reduces to roughly 10 percent of its room temperature value. Steel that is unprotected (e.g., if the fireproofing is dislodged) can reach the air temperature within the time period that the fires burned within the towers. Thus, yielding and buckling of the steel members (floor trusses, beams, and both core and exterior columns) with missing fireproofing were expected under the fire intensity and duration determined by NIST for the WTC towers.

UL did not certify any steel as suggested. In fact, in U.S. practice, steel is not certified at all; rather structural assemblies are tested for their fire resistance rating in accordance with a standard procedure such as ASTM E 119 (see NCSTAR 1-6B). That the steel was “certified ... to 2000 degrees Fahrenheit for six hours” is simply not true.

8. We know that the sprinkler systems were activated because survivors reported water in the stairwells. If the sprinklers were working, how could there be a 'raging inferno' in the WTC towers?

Both the NIST calculations and interviews with survivors and firefighters indicated that the aircraft impacts severed the water pipes that carried the water to the sprinkler systems. The sprinklers were not operating on the principal fire floors.

However, there were ample sources of the water in the stairwells. The water pipes ran vertically within the stairwells. Moreover, there would have been copious water from the broken restroom supply lines and from the water tanks that supplied the initial water for the sprinklers. Thus, it is not surprising that evacuating occupants encountered a lot of water.

Even if the automatic sprinklers had been operational, the sprinkler systems—which were installed in accordance with the prevailing fire safety code—were designed to suppress a fire that covered as much as 1,500 square feet on a given floor. This amount of coverage is capable of controlling almost all fires that are likely to occur in an office building. On Sept. 11, 2001, the jet-fuel ignited fires quickly spread over most of the 40,000 square feet on several floors in each tower. This created infernos that could not have been suppressed even by an undamaged sprinkler system, much less one that had been appreciably degraded.

9. If thick black smoke is characteristic of an oxygen-starved, lower temperature, less intense fire, why was thick black smoke exiting the WTC towers when the fires inside were supposed to be extremely hot?

Nearly all indoor large fires, including those of the principal combustibles in the WTC towers, produce large quantities of optically thick, dark smoke. This is because, at the locations where the actual burning is taking place, the oxygen is severely depleted and the combustibles are not completely oxidized to colorless carbon dioxide and water.

The visible part of fire smoke consists of small soot particles whose formation is favored by the incomplete combustion associated with oxygen-depleted burning. Once formed, the soot from the tower fires was rapidly pushed away from the fires into less hot regions of the building or directly to broken windows and breaks in the building exterior. At these lower temperatures, the soot could no longer burn away. Thus, people saw the thick dark smoke characteristic of burning under oxygen-depleted conditions.

10. Why were people seen in the gaps left by the plane impacts if the heat from the fires behind them was so excessive?

NIST believes that the persons seen were away from any strong heat source and most likely in an area that at the time was a point where the air for combustion was being drawn into the building to support the fires. Note that people were observed only in the openings in WTC 1.

According to the International Standard ISO/TS 13571, people will be in severe pain within seconds if they are near the radiant heat level generated by a large fire. Thus, it is not surprising that none of the photographs show a person standing in those gaps where there also was a sizable fire.

The fire behavior following the aircraft impacts is described in NIST NCSTAR 1-5A. In general, there was little sustained fire near the area where the aircraft hit the towers. Immediately upon impact of the aircraft, large fireballs from the atomized jet fuel consumed all the local oxygen. (This in itself would have made those locations rapidly unlivable.) The fireballs receded quickly and were followed by fires that grew inside the tower where there was a combination of combustible material, air and an ignition source. Little combustible material remained near the aircraft entry gashes since the aircraft "bulldozed" much of it toward the interior of the building. Also, some of the contents fell through the breaks in the floor to the stories below.

Therefore, the people observed in these openings must have survived the aircraft impact and moved—once the fireballs had dissipated—to the openings where the temperatures were cooler and the air was clearer than in the building interior.

11. Why do some photographs show a yellow stream of molten metal pouring down the side of WTC2 that NIST claims was aluminum from the crashed plane although aluminum burns with a white glow?

NIST reported (NCSTAR 1-5A) that just before 9:52 a.m., a bright spot appeared at the top of a window on the 80th floor of WTC 2, four windows removed from the east edge on the north face, followed by the flow of a glowing liquid. This flow lasted approximately four seconds before subsiding. Many such liquid flows were observed from near this location in the seven minutes leading up to the collapse of this tower. There is no evidence of similar molten liquid pouring out from another location in WTC 2 or from anywhere within WTC 1.

Photographs, and NIST simulations of the aircraft impact, show large piles of debris in the 80th and 81st floors of WTC 2 near the site where the glowing liquid eventually appeared. Much of this debris came from the aircraft itself and from the office furnishings that the aircraft pushed forward as it tunneled to this far end of the building. Large fires developed on these piles shortly after the aircraft impact and continued to burn in the area until the tower collapsed.

NIST concluded that the source of the molten material was aluminum alloys from the aircraft, since these are known to melt between 475 degrees Celsius and 640 degrees Celsius (depending on the particular alloy), well below the expected temperatures (about 1,000 degrees Celsius) in the vicinity of the fires. Aluminum is not expected to ignite at normal fire temperatures and there is no visual indication that the material flowing from the tower was burning.

Pure liquid aluminum would be expected to appear silvery. However, the molten metal was very likely mixed with large amounts of hot, partially burned, solid organic materials (e.g., furniture, carpets, partitions and computers) which can display an orange glow, much like logs burning in a fireplace. The apparent color also would have been affected by slag formation on the surface.

12. Did the NIST investigation look for evidence of the WTC towers being brought down by controlled demolition? Was the steel tested for explosives or thermite residues? The combination of thermite and sulfur (called thermate) "slices through steel like a hot knife through butter."

NIST did not test for the residue of these compounds in the steel.

The responses to questions number 2, 4, 5 and 11 demonstrate why NIST concluded that there were no explosives or controlled demolition involved in the collapses of the WTC towers.

Furthermore, a very large quantity of thermite (a mixture of powdered or granular aluminum metal and powdered iron oxide that burns at extremely high temperatures when ignited) or another incendiary compound would have had to be placed on at least the number of columns damaged by the aircraft impact and weakened by the subsequent fires to bring down a tower. Thermite burns slowly relative to explosive materials and can require several minutes in contact with a massive steel section to heat it to a temperature that would result in substantial weakening. Separate from the WTC towers investigation, NIST researchers estimated that at least 0.13 pounds of thermite would be required to heat each pound of a steel section to approximately 700 degrees Celsius (the temperature at which steel weakens substantially). Therefore, while a thermite reaction can cut through large steel columns, many thousands of pounds of thermite would need to have been placed inconspicuously ahead of time, remotely ignited, and somehow held in direct contact with the surface of hundreds of massive structural components to weaken the building. This makes it an unlikely substance for achieving a controlled demolition.

Analysis of the WTC steel for the elements in thermite/thermate would not necessarily have been conclusive. The metal compounds also would have been present in the construction materials making up the WTC towers, and sulfur is present in the gypsum wallboard that was prevalent in the interior partitions.

13. Why did the NIST investigation not consider reports of molten steel in the wreckage from the WTC towers?

NIST investigators and experts from the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) and the Structural Engineers Association of New York (SEONY)—who inspected the WTC steel at the WTC site and the salvage yards—found no evidence that would support the melting of steel in a jet-fuel ignited fire in the towers prior to collapse. The condition of the steel in the wreckage of the WTC towers (i.e., whether it was in a molten state or not) was irrelevant to the investigation of the collapse since it does not provide any conclusive information on the condition of the steel when the WTC towers were standing.

NIST considered the damage to the steel structure and its fireproofing caused by the aircraft impact and the subsequent fires when the buildings were still standing since that damage was responsible for initiating the collapse of the WTC towers.

Under certain circumstances it is conceivable for some of the steel in the wreckage to have melted after the buildings collapsed. Any molten steel in the wreckage was more likely due to the high temperature resulting from long exposure to combustion within the pile than to short exposure to fires or explosions while the buildings were standing.

14. Why is the NIST investigation of the collapse of WTC 7 (the 47-story office building that collapsed on Sept. 11, 2001, hours after the towers) taking so long to complete? Is a controlled demolition hypothesis being considered to explain the collapse?

When NIST initiated the WTC investigation, it made a decision not to hire new staff to support the investigation. After the June 2004 progress report on the WTC investigation was issued, the NIST investigation team stopped working on WTC 7 and was assigned full-time through the fall of 2005 to complete the investigation of the WTC towers. With the release and dissemination of the report on the WTC towers in October 2005, the investigation of the WTC 7 collapse resumed. Considerable progress has been made since that time, including the review of nearly 80 boxes of new documents related to WTC 7, the development of detailed technical approaches for modeling and analyzing various collapse hypotheses, and the selection of a contractor to assist NIST staff in carrying out the analyses. It is anticipated that a draft report will be released for public comment by July 2008 and that the final report will be released shortly thereafter.

The current NIST working collapse hypothesis for WTC 7 is described in the June 2004 Progress Report on the Federal Building and Fire Safety Investigation of the World Trade Center Disaster (Volume 1, page 17, as well as Appendix L), as follows:

*

An initial local failure occurred at the lower floors (below floor 13) of the building due to fire and/or debris-induced structural damage of a critical column (the initiating event) which supported a large-span floor bay with an area of about 2,000 square feet;

*

Vertical progression of the initial local failure occurred up to the east penthouse, and as the large floor bays became unable to redistribute the loads, it brought down the interior structure below the east penthouse; and

*

Triggered by damage due to the vertical failure, horizontal progression of the failure across the lower floors (in the region of floors 5 and 7 that were much thicker and more heavily reinforced than the rest of the floors) resulted in a disproportionate collapse of the entire structure.

This hypothesis may be supported or modified, or new hypotheses may be developed, through the course of the continuing investigation. NIST also is considering whether hypothetical blast events could have played a role in initiating the collapse. While NIST has found no evidence of a blast or controlled demolition event, NIST would like to determine the magnitude of hypothetical blast scenarios that could have led to the structural failure of one or more critical elements.


If one has a better bunch of facts, post it.

Next week's much anticipated final report by a bipartisan commission on the origins of the 9/11 attacks will contain new evidence of contacts between al-Qaeda and Iran—just weeks after the Administration has come under fire for overstating its claims of contacts between al-Qaeda and Saddam Hussein's Iraq.
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A senior U.S. official told TIME that the Commission has uncovered evidence suggesting that between eight and ten of the 14 "muscle" hijackers—that is, those involved in gaining control of the four 9/11 aircraft and subduing the crew and passengers—passed through Iran in the period from October 2000 to February 2001. Sources also tell TIME that Commission investigators found that Iran had a history of allowing al-Qaeda members to enter and exit Iran across the Afghan border. This practice dated back to October 2000, with Iranian officials issuing specific instructions to their border guards—in some cases not to put stamps in the passports of al-Qaeda personnel—and otherwise not harass them and to facilitate their travel across the frontier. The report does not, however, offer evidence that Iran was aware of the plans for the 9/11 attacks.

The senior official also told TIME that the report will note that Iranian officials approached the al-Qaeda leadership after the bombing of the USS Cole and proposed a collaborative relationship in future attacks on the U.S., but the offer was turned down by bin Laden because he did not want to alienate his supporters in Saudi Arabia.

The Iran-al Qaeda contacts were discovered and presented to the Commissioners near the end of the bipartisan panel's more than year-long investigation into the sources and origins of the 9/11 attacks. Much of the new information about Iran came from al-Qaeda detainees interrogated by the U.S. government, including captured Yemeni al-Qaeda operative Waleed Mohammed bin Attash, who organized the October 2000 attack on the USS Cole, and from as many as 100 separate electronic intelligence intercepts culled by analysts at the NSA. The findings were sent to the White House for review only this week. But Commission members have been hinting for weeks that their report would have some Iran surprises. As the 9/11 Commission's chairman, Thomas Kean, said in June, "We believe....that there were a lot more active contacts, frankly, with Iran and with Pakistan than there were with Iraq."

These findings follow a Commission staff report, released in June, which suggested that al-Qaeda may have collaborated with Hezbollah and its Iranian sponsors in the 1996 bombing of the Khobar Towers, a key American military barracks in Saudi Arabia. Previously, the attack had been attributed only to Hezbollah, with Iranian support. A U.S. indictment of bin Laden filed in 1998 for the bombing of U.S. embassies in Africa said al-Qaeda "forged alliances . . . with the government of Iran and its associated terrorist group Hezbollah for the purpose of working together against their perceived common enemies in the West, particularly the United States." But the Commission comes to no firm conclusion on al-Qaeda's involvement in the Khobar disaster.

Since 9/11 the U.S. has held direct talks with Iran—and through intermediaries including Britain, Switzerland and Saudi Arabia—concerning the fate of scores of al-Qaeda that Iran has acknowleded are in the country, including an unspecified number of senior leaders, whom one senior U.S. official called al-Qaeda's "management council". The U.S. as well as the Saudis have unsuccessfully sought the repatriation of this group, which is widely thought to include Saad bin Laden, the son of Osama bin Laden, as well of other key al-Qaeda figures.

I'm not going to do your homework for you impala, I could careless if you want to believe that planes brought WTC down or not. I have my own opinions based on many hours of my own research on the subject and I did not log every single piece of information that I base my conclusions on. I will say this though the first thing I would automatically discredit is anything that says National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) or comes from any site that has a .gov address. If the government is involved in anyway or has anything to hide do you really think for a minute there would be a unbiased view or information that goes against their position on their own site, lol I think not.

In a quick search on google I found this for you though as its just one small piece of info that I have seen in many other places, if you really want to see whats out there you are going to have to do your own research and just try not to go to government sites so they can spoon feed you exactly what they want you to believe.
Look at this: http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2006/0 ... ml?discuss and look at the picture, there are many many pictures showing steel columns cut at near perfect angels out there, with your vast superior knowledge I'd like to see you explain how those columns and so many others got cut like that. If a building truly collapsed the steel would not be cut like that, it would be bent and torn apart, never mind that independent parties found traces of themate at the site. OH one other little known tidbet for you, do you know who was in charge of WTC security prior to and up to 09-11? Why it was none other than Marvin Bush, brother of George W. Bush. It has also been reported that 1 week before 911,there was a "power down"at WTC complex, lasting 30 hrs.This shut down all security cameras,and no one was allowed to enter WTC complex. This shit just goes on and on and there's way too many inconsistencies and co-incidences to believe the story the government tells. Take a look around you, do your own research and believe what ever you want, its not like what ever you or I believe to be true is going to make a bit of difference.

Old pirates, yes, they rob I;
Sold I to the merchant ships,
Minutes after they took I
From the bottomless pit.
But my hand was made strong
By the 'and of the Almighty.
We forward in this generation
Triumphantly.

Won't you help to sing
These songs of freedom? -
'Cause all I ever have:
Redemption songs;
Redemption songs.

Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery;
None but ourselves can free our minds.
Have no fear for atomic energy,
'Cause none of them can stop the time.
How long shall they kill our prophets,
While we stand aside and look? Ooh!
Some say it's just a part of it:
We've got to fulfil de book.

Won't you help to sing
These songs of freedom? -
'Cause all I ever have:
Redemption songs;
Redemption songs;
Redemption songs.

Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery;
None but ourselves can free our mind.
Wo! Have no fear for atomic energy,
'Cause none of them-a can-a stop-a the time.
How long shall they kill our prophets,
While we stand aside and look?
Yes, some say it's just a part of it:
We've got to fulfil de book.

Won't you help to sing
Dese songs of freedom? -
'Cause all I ever had:
Redemption songs -
All I ever had:
Redemption songs:
These songs of freedom,
Songs of freedom.


Jah Bless, Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to us all

val

L2k wrote:I'm not going to do your homework for you impala, I could careless if you want to believe that planes brought WTC down or not. I have my own opinions based on many hours of my own research on the subject and I did not log every single piece of information that I base my conclusions on. I will say this though the first thing I would automatically discredit is anything that says National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) or comes from any site that has a .gov address. If the government is involved in anyway or has anything to hide do you really think for a minute there would be a unbiased view or information that goes against their position on their own site, lol I think not.

In a quick search on google I found this for you though as its just one small piece of info that I have seen in many other places, if you really want to see whats out there you are going to have to do your own research and just try not to go to government sites so they can spoon feed you exactly what they want you to believe.
Look at this: http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2006/0 ... ml?discuss and look at the picture, there are many many pictures showing steel columns cut at near perfect angels out there, with your vast superior knowledge I'd like to see you explain how those columns and so many others got cut like that. If a building truly collapsed the steel would not be cut like that, it would be bent and torn apart, never mind that independent parties found traces of themate at the site. OH one other little known tidbet for you, do you know who was in charge of WTC security prior to and up to 09-11? Why it was none other than Marvin Bush, brother of George W. Bush. It has also been reported that 1 week before 911,there was a "power down"at WTC complex, lasting 30 hrs.This shut down all security cameras,and no one was allowed to enter WTC complex. This shit just goes on and on and there's way too many inconsistencies and co-incidences to believe the story the government tells. Take a look around you, do your own research and believe what ever you want, its not like what ever you or I believe to be true is going to make a bit of difference.

HAHAHAHAAAAAA Thats funny. Do my homework for me!?!?! Like what i posted above?!?!? Where and why the fuck do i need you? So i can see you run your fucking mouth some more?

My vastly superior knowledge? Thats fucking hilarious. The knowledge is not mine. I guess you didn't read the NIST report. Are you an engineer?

Independent parties?!?!
Thermate?

I have pages from another PHD in Vermont, who says cellphones don't work in flight
He is also a nutjob.

This whole deal is like Global Warming, where Al Gore is the expert and 650 top scientists don't matter.

So you are a gullible puke and believe whatever you read. I will take my evidence over something posted in Portland.

"Furthermore, a very large quantity of thermite (a mixture of powdered or granular aluminum metal and powdered iron oxide that burns at extremely high temperatures when ignited) or another incendiary compound would have had to be placed on at least the number of columns damaged by the aircraft impact and weakened by the subsequent fires to bring down a tower. Thermite burns slowly relative to explosive materials and can require several minutes in contact with a massive steel section to heat it to a temperature that would result in substantial weakening. Separate from the WTC towers investigation, NIST researchers estimated that at least 0.13 pounds of thermite would be required to heat each pound of a steel section to approximately 700 degrees Celsius (the temperature at which steel weakens substantially). Therefore, while a thermite reaction can cut through large steel columns, many thousands of pounds of thermite would need to have been placed inconspicuously ahead of time, remotely ignited, and somehow held in direct contact with the surface of hundreds of massive structural components to weaken the building. This makes it an unlikely substance for achieving a controlled demolition."

Here the is the link to the final report, not by one guy, but hundreds of scientists, who, i guess are also part of the plot by Bush to kill 3000 Americans?!?!
http://wtc.nist.gov/NCSTAR1/PDF/NCSTAR%201A.pdf

"The whole U.S. government is a terrorist unit, operating under the guise of its counter terrorism squads.]"
Fucking Nutcase.

from Wiki: "Jones' paper has been the center of controversy both for its content and its claims to scientific rigor.[19] Jones' early critics included members of BYU's engineering faculty;[20] shortly after he made his views public, the BYU College of Physical and Mathematical Sciences and the faculty of structural engineering issued statements in which they distanced themselves from Jones' work. They noted that Jones' "hypotheses and interpretations of evidence were being questioned by scholars and practitioners," and expressed doubts about whether they had been "submitted to relevant scientific venues that would ensure rigorous technical peer review."[21]"

Jones is a fucking nutbagger and has been relieved of his teaching duties because he is insane like all the other TRUTHERS . CooCoo, Bonkers, CAAARAAAZY, No one home...

If you read the lies of hundreds of co-conspirators at NIST, you would see planting Thermite is bullshit.

The Argumentalizer wrote:."Here the is the link to the final report, not by one guy, but hundreds of scientists, who, i guess are also part of the plot by Bush to kill 3000 Americans?!?!
http://wtc.nist.gov/NCSTAR1/PDF/NCSTAR%201A.pdf

LOL you said it not me, I just think out government has covered up some information here. Now why don't you try and find some information that isn't tainted by government sources.

this is quite possibly the most revolting thread i've encountered on the U. disgusting even.

here punk: http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/photosoftorch-cutsteel

a healthy dose of mistrust in the government is just that... healthy. believing in a government conspiracy of the magnitude necessary for this outrage is just lunacy.

is that really easier to believe than incompetence? than government bureaucrats competing for the almighty budget dollar, stabbing each other in the back at every opportunity and witholding information to put their agency in the best light and cast doubt and dispersions on others?

wake up? the presumption being if i don't believe in conspiracy i'm asleep? the presumption being i haven't opened my mind? the presumption being i haven't explored oddities and discrepancies and found them wanting?

my eyes were open. i was awake. i was there for the recovery. i saw the unimaginable destruction. the grief. the courage. my eyes burned with acrid residues. my lungs still carry the wtc cough.

wake up?

SHUT THE FUCK UP!

see? i can be non-pc too.

L2k wrote:

The Argumentalizer wrote:."Here the is the link to the final report, not by one guy, but hundreds of scientists, who, i guess are also part of the plot by Bush to kill 3000 Americans?!?!
http://wtc.nist.gov/NCSTAR1/PDF/NCSTAR%201A.pdf

LOL you said it not me, I just think out government has covered up some information here. Now why don't you try and find some information that isn't tainted by government sources.

You are a fucking nutcase like all the rest of the 911 truthers.

And i am not going to waste any more time on this idiocy.
Good Luck chasing unicorns and thousands of government ninjas planting thermite, and hundreds of scientists on the take, and hundreds of scheming evil FBI agents who are part of the Illuminati/DaVinci Code/Alex Jones/Tri-Lateral Commission/Bilderberg/Alice in Wonderland riding in Black Helicopters/Aliens/Bush caused 911 Cesspool of stupid.

See that car down the street? That is the gubmint coming to getcha!
That Mel Gibson movie was cool though.

Lol. Someone planted Tons of thermite at the WTC. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHa

Its all so truthee. It ain't the truth but it could be.
Later, i have to go cover the inside of my room with Tin Foil so the Gubmint Ninja 182d Death Squad can't get my brain!
Hey, what was that click on the phone? Oh shit...

If you want some more debunking resources:

http://forums.randi.org/local_links.php?catid=18

There are about 20 links there you can follow. I really hate conspiracy theorists because they often take it too far. Believing in one thing or another, fine, but ALL of this bullshit at the same time and then claiming anyone who doesn't believe their way won't "open their eyes". Seriously guys, get a new hobby.

On a side note this is probably the only time I'll agree with the above posters.

Marvin Bush WAS Director of a security firm, but was not with them at the time of 911.
The head of security for the WTC was former FBI agent John O,Neil, who died on 911 and worked for the Port Authority, which is actually in charge of physical security.
The firm that Bush worked for did electronic surveillance of the building.
Alex Jones claims Securacoms contract ended on 911. That is true because the fucking buildings were destroyed! Duhhhhh.
There is no evidence Wirt Walker is a cousin of GWB.
Securacom's contract was for installation of the security cameras and such.


The beams in the picture show torch marks. They were cut by rescuers AFTER the building fell.
The scientific evidence leads to the thought it would take far too much Thermate, would be far too hard to conceal...

Professor Steven Jones was relieved of his teaching position and then retired.
He was castigated by his own colleagues for being a nutjob.
Alex Jones is a Nutjob.
The entire Truther Org. are nutjobs.

There is not a shred of hard proof to anything they say.

James Fetzer, Father Moonbat of Scholars for Truth, know says that secret high energy weapons brought down the towers! LOL
He also says Paul Wellstone's plane crash was orchestrated by an evil Republican plot to kill him.

Which, when you get down to it, is what a lot of this CT is all about. Bush and Cheney are actually evil and evil enough to kill New Yorkers in order to... whatever.

Its called slander.

The Argumentalizer wrote: Bush and Cheney are actually evil and evil enough to kill New Yorkers in order to... whatever.

i love 9/11 truthers

CellarDweller pretty much hit the nail on the head; why don't you guys go to some ron paul rallies and jerk off with your tin foil hats

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science ... tml?page=1

popular mechanics: tainted by government? YOU DECIDE!

some people seem to get confused between intelligent people thinking and debating issues concerning humanity and paranoid people on rampage spewing nonsense.
it's EASIER to call one stupid or nutjob than to debate, i know. but it sure isn't proving you're right. loud doesn't mean right and badmouth doesn't mean right.
and for the last time - not everything every 'nutjob' posts on the internet and calls it conspiracy is worth anyone's time. but don't insult your own IQ and call everything you don't have an explanation for - stupid. that is my friends, being a stupid.
also, if several people came and presented none government materials contradicting reports of the government why do some people fail to see that re-presenting the same government materials is out of the question i mean serious.
Let me spell it out - The US Government is challenged here. some people claim its done some pretty horrible things.
Now, there has been serious work done and studies were presented on websites, book and so forth. here's the deal : those studies CANNOT be countered by the same government that is challenged here.
simple enough.
Note also that those serious professionals studying the 911 are NOT the same people who spread Reptilians / Satanist / Masonic / Illuminati conspiracy bullshit on the net. they are different people lol. please. please. please. stop referring to both like they are the same guys. it's funny. not stupid. just funny. I mean, i know it's easier to disarm one's argument by linking them with all CT ever let out but sorry, you'll have to refer to the items in question. don't' blur the subject.


val

Id just like to remind everyone that lizard people do control the world.

Pic extremely related.

It's about time you posted that.

Where did they find Disco balls small enough for the paper mache lizard captain's eyes?

Hmm I thought it was the sleestacks

It was a Captain Lizard vs Captain Kirk, if i remember correctly.

my vote is for the lizard people.