The League Maps Debate

I’d like to start a discussion on the matter of the HL2DM competitive community receptiveness to new maps at this point in time because I feel this is very important, not only as a mapper. The following are my personal views. Let’s get a healthy and open-minded discussion going. As I’m sure you will all agree the future of this game largely relies on new levels to play as it does on new leagues.

Here are my 3 main arguments:

1) The Stats Factor: Competitive players fear of losing already gained stats, since playing new maps involves learning the layout and item/player spawns from scratch, they’d much prefer playing already studied maps in which they have if not an advantage at least not a disadvantage.

2) The Approval Factor: Incapacity of original thought. New maps seem to find acceptance mainly if not only via mapping competitions which is wrong. Not to take away anything from the competitions – they’re great and should be supported, however new maps should be able to be introduced and break through independently which never happens.

3) The Comfort Factor: “I’m used to dm_old. dm_old is awesome. Why should I change?” this is Fear of the New Things. Though this might sound over dramatic and raise debate, from my personal observation, this is a natural human trait. Although one you should keep in check and not let take over the wheel as it were.

I want to point that a great number of competitive players I’ve spoken with often expressed their dislike of the maps used in leagues. Still you’ll see these maps keep on being elected again and again. Inarguably every map played in leagues today has in it good elements as well as not-so-good elements, some are damn great maps, some aren’t. But A. the fact that on a one on one basis people speak out against something and when they come to vote they embrace what they profess to dislike begs serious thought. And B. Old in itself is not a bad thing but the fact there is hardly anything new but circulation of the same stuff is far from ideal.

Another thing to note is the fact that this game although lacking any attention from Valve keeps evolving its gameplay techniques as time goes by. And yet, this change in style is inarguably not reflected in new maps (with maybe the one exclusion of dm_airfusion, but only slightly).

One last thing I want to point out is the fact that at least in my case, during playtests of a map I would get inputs from people, implement those inputs into the map only to find out the same people who gave the inputs now complain about a myriad of new other things they’ve never mentioned before. Some times I’ve noticed people not pointing out faults in a map and kept it to themselves. Perhaps as an advantage during a match?...who knows but when the said map would be debated whether or not it should be used in league, those “hidden”, untold faults would surface all of a sudden and bring down the map completely.

(I’m BTW posting this in the cafeteria since many don't look at the Dept. of Architecture)

Your thoughts / comments _ _ _

Sad to say Valar but its all too true....
In my experience in the european league, changing conservative minds is hard to do. Playing the same old stock maps is ok but in order to get this game out of the wheelchair there needs to a vision by its community. We need to look past the tired old maps and embrace our gods of dm, the mappers.
Encouragement to the mappers are few and far between with the odd competition that stirs a bit of interest. Obviously newer games are out there and its hard to come back to this game once your into that latest game.

But to the point ... ppl need to welcome fresh new maps and give them a chance...after all lockdown, caverns etc...faced this kind of ignorance i guess untill we as a community played them and gave them a chance till they came out of our ears.

Fact is imao as in my post about pig popper coming back to mapping and the negative responses especially from that (rejected)http://www.hl2dm-university.com/forum/p ... =10&t=5130
is far far far from constructive.
Welcome new maps

Hl2dm is split into many different groups of players. There are only a handful left of community stock pubs in the USA which enjoy playing every stock map. (SW) - Sniperwatch was the biggest one of these groups in their time. ATL (Clan leader) had well over 3 gb's of maps loaded on his server and you would never play the smae map twice. The [FF] and [MB] are others that come to mind when custom maps come up. Always something fresh one there rotations.

Then a small group of around 20-30 players that are into competition and only have time for practicing the current league maps. Maybe try a couple here and there. So really it was up to who ever made the map decision; STA, CAL, Warzone, CU, now eFPS. As the game went one the standards went up. During the STA ladder (05) we pretty much played any map there was at random. First match was dm_sanctuary_b7u4 a map with invisible walls and all kinds of random things. The more maps that came out the higher the standards went. With both Rhideon of STA and Fearsome of cal they both wanted to get rid of all the maps that had been in the league that were sub par to a certain standard or had lots of flaws.
Both of these guys wanted lockdown as the standard and made them the finals maps of ever season they ran. Fearsome had plently of little rules he went by in picking the maps for the season. No more then 1 or 2 at most from the same mapper, must have all weapons etc etc. It lead to some subpar choices while good maps got overlooked but it was a standard that he put in place and made sense on some level (DGC maps come to mind as why this would be a rule.) . Dal and I wanted more diversitiy and looked over some flaws for the sake of changing the pace and were willing to put in more new maps per season. Can't say for CU since it doesn't have the same system of picking maps.


But fact is, new maps got into every season that hl2dm was played in a league. So caught on and stayed for many season. Some the players just didn't like for what ever reason. I am willing to bet that over half of the maps in eFPS are going to be different and new from the last season of cal. Mainly because of all the good options that are out there now.

Valar, I think all your points are wrong.

1. Competitive players don't keep stats. They don't look at their lifetime KDR or something like that. No competitive server even has a stats plugin.

2. Maps that win competitions get played only because people have been exposed to them. No one comes around and says HEY I GOT THIS AWESOME MAP TRY IT OUT outside of the Architectural Department. It's just a problem of exposure. And that's only the fault of the map-maker for not exposing more people to the product.

3. Most competitive players are sick and tired of the current maps. I can't tell you how many times people have sat in a server trying to do a 2v2 only to bitch for 20 minutes about how they don't want to play any current competitive maps.

1. Competitive players don't keep stats. They don't look at their lifetime KDR or something like that. No competitive server even has a stats plugin.

I’ve chosen the wrong terminology here. I was not referring to stats in the sense of HLstatsX or any stats plugin or system. I was referring more to status in terms of level of achievements and acknowledgement in the competitive scene. Hope this clarifies it better.

2. Maps that win competitions get played only because people have been exposed to them. No one comes around and says HEY I GOT THIS AWESOME MAP TRY IT OUT outside of the Architectural Department. It's just a problem of exposure. And that's only the fault of the map-maker for not exposing more people to the product.

I can safely say that at least in my case, since I’ve started creating competitive maps I’ve been literally bombarding this and other forums with posts, ridiculous amounts of pimped to death screenshots, map logos and whathaveyou, to the point in which I might have even saturated the “market” somewhat :/. I’m not the only one as a matter of fact. PigPopper is just another example and there are others. Many others. The point it; exposure is hardly the issue here.
Some examples:

For exposure reference. The HL2DMU Mapping Contest Final Results thread had 3134 views. If that’s exposure then the following don’t fall THAT far behind, amirite ?

dm_is_alive – 1564 views
Was played literally by hundreds of players from the competitive scenes in the US, Europe and South America. I might even had a few ausies in there at some point.

dm_warlock – 2042 views

dm_remorse – 1035 views

dm_losthope – 1582 views

There’s also Milieu with 2193 views. Was played once or twice I understand in last season of CAL. Everyone I know from this forum and slews of ppl I’ve never seen before arrived at my server to playtest it many times over and ALL gave inputs. All inputs were implemented into the final version. Read my first post to see what exactly happened there.
There's assload of other maps and that’s just me. but hey, I’m insane and sleep in an ammocrate in Hammer. :/ le't's move on

...

Here’s boshed’s dm_helix – with 1033 views. This thing of beauty took second place in last year's competition!!! Completely overlooked and it’s a sick map and it was definitely exposed.

Sadist’s dm_jaeger – with 1475 views. inarguably exposed. people favored trashing his map instead of helping him sort out the things they claimed didn't work for them.

There’s VitaminG’s incredible dm_ethic – 560 views which is a sad count because this is an excellent map. just point out how a map can be so easily overlooked.

I’ll stop here.

3. Most competitive players are sick and tired of the current maps. I can't tell you how many times people have sat in a server trying to do a 2v2 only to bitch for 20 minutes about how they don't want to play any current competitive maps.

exactly my point

dm_ethic is a great map! Bad Influence and myself have 1v1'd on it quite a few times and I really like the flow of it...

I hope we get some great new maps from the coming mapping contest!

Does anyone look back fondly at the HL2DMU 2v2 Tournament and say "Oh gosh I sure do miss warlock and jaeger_rc2". No, they don't. Making a map that is actually fun to play and competitive at the same time is the equivalent to a magic bullet or the holy grail. New maps that are fun and competitive dont pop up every month or even every year.

They are rare and will continue to be rare, I have no regrets or anger towards allowing almost any map people wanted in CU and they all ended up choosing LD_R5, Caverns or Airfusion. People like those maps, theyre fun to play, we (competitive players) cant find many other maps that are as fun, simple.You can't just make these holy grail of new elite competitive maps every month, they come when they come, and its very rare.

Does anyone look back fondly at the HL2DMU 2v2 Tournament and say "Oh gosh I sure do miss warlock and jaeger_rc2". No, they don't. Making a map that is actually fun to play and competitive at the same time is the equivalent to a magic bullet or the holy grail. New maps that are fun and competitive dont pop up every month or even every year.

They are rare and will continue to be rare, I have no regrets or anger towards allowing almost any map people wanted in CU and they all ended up choosing LD_R5, Caverns or Airfusion. People like those maps, theyre fun to play, we (competitive players) cant find many other maps that are as fun, simple.You can't just make these holy grail of new elite competitive maps every month, they come when they come, and its very rare.

That being said, every seasons should get 1/2 brand new maps (previously voted in by community) in the cycle in order to truly test it in depth. Some maps at the first sight wouldn't work in competitive play because or this or that and playing them over time could reveal otherwise. If the map is bad, then may it be avoided forever.

You test new maps but hand picked ones. You force people to play them, wich solves the whole "people just wont pick new stuff, they'd rather pick the old stuff and do good on it" problem. You keep the mapping business alive and i'm sure some surprise victories and glorious gameplay could be caught there.

Caverns was implemented this way and now it's the new 4v4 map.

1) hold a mapping contest
2) get a bunch of people to play the submitted maps
3) in-house vote
4) public playtest
5) public vote
6) compare/pick

i had a runaround in dm_warlock and found it too cramped, needed much more flow, cant speak to the others.

Also i'll just add this, stairs u cant slide up, or ladders arent fun, especially for the competitive side i would imagine.

Vals, you should stop using the term "we" unless you have multiple personalities but srsly you do that a lot. you're not a spokesman and it would help relate to what you're saying if it didn't give the feeling there's a large crowd standing behind you cheering and supporting you.
Maybe instead of rushing into opposition, try to see the point here. because there clearly is one. those "we", "they" and "people" also said the same thing about some of the maps i've pointed out in my post then opted for other maps come voting time..for reasons i have, i personally believe and i may be wrong, spelled out in my post. i know it's fun to "we" things up but it's not always quite accurate.
I agree with you not each and every map can be a holy grail. but i'm not sure i'd give this title to most of the maps that are being heavily played in competitive leagues and scrims. and so do most people here.

Considering I know every single competitive player in HL2DM and am friends with all of them (literally) I use the term we selectively speaking. The term we is a majoritive approach, I know with 100% certainty the majority of the competitive community began to dislike warlock and jaegar after awhile.

Its really a matter of freedom or enforcement in making new maps to be played in leagues. I like to air on the side of freedom of allowing the players to do what they want, I believe Holy believes in the same approach. If a new map is really that good new playes will begin demanding it and through freedom of choice it will come of age.


EDIT; inb4 like 20 ppl say I'm really not their friend

your "we" is still dismissed by "us" and this discussion is not about warlock or Jaeger.

Does anyone look back fondly at the HL2DMU 2v2 Tournament and say "Oh gosh I sure do miss warlock and jaeger_rc2". No, they don't. Making a map that is actually fun to play and competitive at the same time is the equivalent to a magic bullet or the holy grail. New maps that are fun and competitive dont pop up every month or even every year.

They are rare and will continue to be rare, I have no regrets or anger towards allowing almost any map people wanted in CU and they all ended up choosing LD_R5, Caverns or Airfusion. People like those maps, theyre fun to play, we (competitive players) cant find many other maps that are as fun, simple.You can't just make these holy grail of new elite competitive maps every month, they come when they come, and its very rare.

I think this is a good point Valar and it speaks to what you are talking about.

Warlock and Jaeger_rc2 are good examples.

Warlock was interesting from the start, looked good. But was originally put down for cal only due to you already had one map involved in the season. So it was left for another season which ended up not happening. It go it's chance in the hl2dmU 2v2 tourney. At that time before the play I would say it was 60 / 40 in favor for the map. But after being played that turned to 40 / 60 against.

Jaeger_rc2 looked really good, I would say (imo) it was 80 / 20 for the map. But not many of those 80 did not play it. Afterwards that turned down by a lot 30 / 70.

I am surprised I haven't seen anything on dm_helix maybe it just doesn't have it. Or the current group of players just enjoy other maps atm

so heh..it went something like ...:

omg this map looks so cool > let's play it > (game on) > omg, where the pickups > omg where the shotty-mag > fuck someone's got to the shotty-mag first > omg i'm getting owned > omg wtf > this map sucks man i want LD|LV|LA|OKAY

Yes?

yeah well, that's what i thought.
moving on...the idea here is to get as more people involved in the discussion as possible. so all you quiet readers hit reply and tell us what you think. this is not a votemap thread but an attempt to find out how to get more cowbell in dm
Can only help both players and mappers. the idea is to improve things.

Jaeger didnt seem to have enough weapons, then again i only jumped in it for like 5 minutes so maybe im wrong.

so heh..it went something like ...:

omg this map looks so cool > let's play it > (game on) > omg, where the pickups > omg where the shotty-mag > fuck someone's got to the shotty-mag first > omg i'm getting owned > omg wtf > this map sucks man i want LD|LV|LA|OKAY

Yes?

No actually it goes something like this

OMG Warlock let's try it!! Ok lets go > Spawns are weird...> shotguns are placed too much in the open, people get picked off too easy trying to get them, and there are too few of them > the paths across the entire map are way too narrow, battles are limited and boring > RPG is too easy to get if someone has good aim to protect you > too many ladders, ladders are the easiest way to kill people when going up them > turns out this map sucks > lets go back to a real competitive map

warlock is amazing along with avalon

nuff said

so heh..it went something like ...:

omg this map looks so cool > let's play it > (game on) > omg, where the pickups > omg where the shotty-mag > fuck someone's got to the shotty-mag first > omg i'm getting owned > omg wtf > this map sucks man i want LD|LV|LA|OKAY

Yes?

In a sense yes. I never did play it so I can't say. Cannon was the same way. Made by a trusted mapper and looked cool so we tried it. After playing it, you only use 1/3 of the map to win and there is now way to mount an attack against an evenly matched team to take it back.

So when a map can be worked on forever but if the balance or flow is not there for competition it isn't there.

warlock is amazing along with avalon

nuff said

LOL

so heh..it went something like ...:

omg this map looks so cool > let's play it > (game on) > omg, where the pickups > omg where the shotty-mag > fuck someone's got to the shotty-mag first > omg i'm getting owned > omg wtf > this map sucks man i want LD|LV|LA|OKAY

Yes?

No actually it goes something like this

OMG Warlock let's try it!! Ok lets go > Spawns are weird...> shotguns are placed too much in the open, people get picked off too easy trying to get them, and there are too few of them > the paths across the entire map are way too narrow, battles are limited and boring > RPG is too easy to get if someone has good aim to protect you > too many ladders, ladders are the easiest way to kill people when going up them > turns out this map sucks > lets go back to a real competitive map

Warlock fails as a competitive map Valiums, this is very old news. get over it and move on. you're barking at the wrong tree lol. and stop sounding like you're against me. i may eventually fall for it

i was being serious by saying those maps are good btw >.<

No I'm trying to give you a general example of why people dont like other maps. I could do the same analysis for pigpoppers competitively mediocre maps, jaegars flawed style ect ect. Its wrong to assume that's our though basis, we dont just say, OMG LETS GO BACK TO WHAT WE KNOW QUICK BATMAN!!!! TO THE BATCAVE!!!!!! FUCK WHERES ROBIN!!!! WE NEED SOMEONE NEW TO MOLEST NOW!!@!@1

We do actually put thought into it and why it fails.

We do actually put thought into it and why it fails.

or just compare it with something you know - real fast.
but let's humor the idea why don't we:
someone who puts thought into why something fails while he is claiming he's trying to promote the game, in my mind should be helping the mapper improve the failing map not bash it and walk away laughing like he won something.
and while you're on the horse, Tex, try not to contradict yourself saying in one instance popper is a "solid, good mapper" and then on another "pigpoppers competitively mediocre maps".
those who stick their necks out and try deserve your respect. here, again, you can only let them know what you think they can do to improve. don't bash them for feeling inspired and wanting to create something. they will very much appreciate your ideas. that is, IF you actually HAVE ideas to offer.
does that make sense?

Yeah I do have an idea, clans are free to chose the map they want. If you have examples of great new maps we should play and clans can use for the eFPS season post them here. On that note I'm gonna eat a pear and exit this topic, problems solved.

Well, imo I believe most competitive players left are pretty open to new maps as long as they have
1. Good flow (movement space etc.)
2. Good weapon layout (not too many of the same weapon or the opposite, if there is an rpg can't be somewhere you can just camp and win etc.)
3. Good spawns (not too close to each other, none/not too many in key places like really close to rpg spawn etc.)
4. Just general map stuff like good fps, no character/prop/weapon glitches etc.

I think those are the first points people (at least I do) look at when they first get in a new map. If all/most of the points are good enough for them then they'll start trying it in 1v1/2v2 or whatever applies to the map size and see what it feels like in competitive play.
I also agree with vals on the point that some maps look great, you get in a server you try it out it feels pretty good looks good etc. but when it comes time to 2v2, you realize that the map really isn't what you expected. (Warlock and jaeger as examples already mentioned.)

First thing that comes to mind is that I simply can't remember the names of all of these new maps.
If the name is easily forgettable then the map is easily forgettable.
Some examples with what I think could have been better names. Lone adjectives, adverbs, or complicated nouns are the enemy here.

dm_avalon -> dm_floating_isle
dm_warlock -> dm_autumn_breeze
dm_is_alive -> dm_superman
dm_remorse -> dm_lockdown2

There, now instead of avalon, warlock, is_alive and remorse, you have FI, AB, SM and LD2


Second thing that comes to mind is that maps have to be fun to pub on as well.
LV, AIM, and Caverns and of course LD are great pubbing maps.
Tigcrick and Zeta are not. These maps achieved short term success but died out because they weren't ever played outside of the league matches. In a pub, map balance gets thrown out the window. I think that too many map makers focus too much on trying to get that perfect 1v1 or 2v2 or 3v3 balance but they don't pay any attention to the 1v10 pub balance. Look at some of the old accomplished maps like backbone and swamplight and design your new stuff after those instead of trying to build some "pro-bhopping no-props impossible-to-get-rpg weapons-sitting-on-colored-lights-in-the-middle-of-hallways competition masterpiece".

Why not forget and bypass all that and just vote 15 maps and keep the 8-10 that win.

Then only a few are unhappy but the process is democratic and above board.
Such a process would completely negate future BS and quibbling (like that?) about map selection.

End of story. Play and have fun.

Oh yeah- i think there is a reason some maps are always played. The level the playing field. Some play one better and some play others. but they are known quantities and even team or individual tendencies on particular maps are also known and can be countered.
I like most all the Comp Maps and many others.

Most people in this community do not think that much about if they like a map or not. You need a number of factors to come together and you have a successful map. Not all of them need to happen and if one dominates it could happen. It is sort of like you get points for all the things that effect a maps success and if enough of them add up it becomes a paragon map. Currently I only see 3 paragon maps in HL2DM. Lockdown, Lostvillage, caverns. All of these maps have high points for the random factors that create such a map. What will surprise you from my old age I have learned that what gives maps high points is more lame then you think.

1 they did not have utter crap fps.
2 at some point an admin of a league blessed them and pushed them.
3 some team played the living shit out of them non stop and forced every one they played against to play them in it.

Through the second 2 factors people were forced to play these maps over and over till everyone knew them like the back of their hand and felt reasonably comfortable in them. The great part is none of those 3 maps are even great maps IMO there is nothing all that special about them. They were just sorta in the right place at the right time. And they didnt suck as bad as their competition. IE in the mapping contest there were very few entries and the competition for caverns was like LA which had no room for 4v4 and aftermath which was down right terrible. Plus the mapper I thought would work with us to improve caverns so I gave it my blessing and threw it in the playoffs the second season and Ewr forced every one to play them in it 24/7. Then the mapper turned out to not really give a shit all the success got to his head and he abondoned the map. Now we are stuck playing it with no sound for the rocket if you snd restart it looks like trash and has alot of glaring defects.

Lost village is similar rhideon who was an admin at the time blessed it and tried to push it all the time. He had a crap computer and had some sort of HL1 connection so he had a huge bias toward HL1 maps. His clan cyn forced everyone to play LV 24/7. The map has jacked up secret doors what is it a bad killbox?, the mapper only made it because he wanted to see if it would compile in HL2 he didnt even give a shit about the map. There is alot of camping on random ledges. The map still looks exactly like a HL1 map. If no one had a preformed bias it would have been laughed out of competition.

Then there is lockdown, back when the game started we had 2 shitty choices lockdown with only 2 paths from the bathroom, tons of junk physics and all sorts of ledges and walls that hang you up. Or there was overwatch. So most people gravitated toward the bad single player map port for competition. If you played $W and or you wanted to 1v1 most good player back then you had to do it on lockdown.



Some other random points. I was around when the game started and zeta prefinal was huge in pubs and plenty fun the rocket wasnt a big deal because all the spawn killing was outside and if you went out someone else took control. I dont think that matters anymore because there is no pub scene. Zeta worked great in pubs. Tig was not around though and avalon was big in pubs too. The bigger problem with these 2 maps was that no clan took them up as their map and forced everyone to play them. $W would play a variety of maps and that was sort of bad each time you played us you would get a variety as we tried to get people to play all sorts of good maps like amplitude, avalon, zeta, and many others and so in a way we eventually by trying to be more open led to the fall in popularity for lockdown. You see this with alot of proposed maps now a couple guys will push hard but there is not enough nor is there an admin to bless it.

In fact you could say that valar suffers from the same problem by turning out to many maps all the time there is no large push toward any 1 map. And so he was unable to solidify 1 map in the game.

There is also the fact that more people then not prefer maps to be simple. Be honest aim is trash but its simple plus VDuS played the crap out of it and you did not need much control to get kills every spawn is on a mag. People tend to be just pushing as much physics and anything that could get in the way out of maps. They tend to be spreading them out. Also vertical play seems to be unpopular.

It is hard for a mapper to make a map thats great anyway because everyone has a different opinion. Me personally I want variety in maps. I think the perfect league would just have 8 very different maps play style wise. Each one would be heavy on a different weapon and so on. But the gravitation seems to be toward making all the maps fit the same bill. Milieu was an example I kinda thought the map brought a different playstyle to the table with its higher than normal concentration of health and armor. Then the usual suspects get ahold of valar when I am busy and chop it all up so the weapon and armor is just like every other map out there and I totally lost all interest in the map after that.

Also votes do not work because as seen in the past it ends up being all the same maps. The way it was in CU is the only truely fair way to do it. Any team picks any map there is no bias. But then you see what happens we have even less diversity than we had in CAL.

bring back np refinery and powerhouse.

Yep alot of people bitch about playing the same old maps, yet every time we had a vote, the same old maps got voted in. We did several votes and thats the way it went every damn time, without fail. Many people did get fed up with this and left competative HL2DM as well as the game altogether. Voting for maps doesnt solve anything.

Zeta and Avalon were played ALOT in pubs. I had them running on my own pub. They were both a ton of fun to play, particularly Avalon because of its vertical game play.

Valar, I appreciate your starting this thread, but I fear its the same old story and I doubt anything will change as much as I wish it would.
HL2DM was kept alive for so many years because of the variety and sheer countless number of maps out there. It never got boring. I used to love playing lots of maps and I played this game nearly every day for 5 years because every new map was a new world to explore and I loved every minute of it. As was said, the stock pub scene is gone, dead.

We clearly need new maps and the mappers to make them, but we also need pubs to play them and show them off in. Without all of those the game will not grow again. However if mappers have left the game because their maps dont get appreciated, we can hardly blame them.

We have grappled with this issue off and on for a few years. To be honest, I am not sure what the solution is.

We clearly need new maps and the mappers to make them, but we also need pubs to play them and show them off in. Without all of those the game will not grow again. However if mappers have left the game because their maps dont get appreciated, we can hardly blame them.

We have grappled with this issue off and on for a few years. To be honest, I am not sure what the solution is.

+1

we are responsible for our own downfall if this game goes to the retirement home.
As gHOST clan in CU, we chose to use dm_helix(boshed) for 3v3 and dm_hydroponicz(pigpopper) for 2v2 and the amount of ppl who whine like a bitch cause they dont know the map is unjust. We wanted these maps because we as a clan gave them a chance. Now alot of clans are aware of these maps and pay more attention to them.

Support our gods of dm and when these new maps come out in the beta tests, let their creator know your thoughts and they will listen to the gamer and adjust to suit.

peace ppl of dm

The reason for starting this thread and for posting my arguments is a practical one. the game is not what it used to be. the big crowds have gone and moved to other games, all true. but the fact is, there are still people playing this game and even if the scene is not what it used to be there is still a small scene here. small, but existing. everyday i keep seeing people playing on pubs and on scrims. therefore, i think it's important to get over how "things were in the past" and look at what things are Now.
The truth is that all maps are flawed as fear pointed out and i agree with it completely. however, you have few remaining mappers still mapping for this game. use them. i hope the new league and competition will bring in new air and most importantly, that people will respond to them.

bring back np refinery and powerhouse.

Take out the slams and powerhouse just turned into my favourite 4v4 map

Maps debate sounds like masturbate

bring back np refinery and powerhouse.

Take out the slams and powerhouse just turned into my favourite 4v4 map

Move the rocket also. Map was fun when it first came out.

Like Vitamin G, and many others are doing, is playing Quake Live. It's free on quakelive.com, and many of the most skilled players play that game.
Most even move on to BC2, MW2, TF2, and some stoop as low as to get addicted to WoW.
There are a few reasons why people don't play HL2DM as much anymore,........the glitchy physics, the messed up hitreg(not consistant), and even because it's not fun anymore. Some people just get way too serious.

I would like to see another league start up, I think it would be good for the community, and I think it could possibly bring back some more activity from members who may have stopped playing, like SIN. Seagull came back for CU, but was gone for a long time,....Who knows, could be a great idea.

anyways, just my two cents. ^_^

also I agree. Powerhouse is great. And the newer map DM_is_Alive. I love it.
Vitamin G's maps are amazing as well, he has yet to release his new map. I look forward to the results.

QuakeLive is gay...

Moving along, team em0 is proud to announce we are working with this maps creater on tweaking dm_lockdown_CRAZY_FINAL http://www.fpsbanana.com/maps/132536

Map will have about 10 more orbs, rest of the details dont really matter.

QuakeLive is gay...

Moving along, team em0 is proud to announce we are working on tweaking dm_lockdown_CRAZY_FINAL http://www.fpsbanana.com/maps/132536

Map will have about 10 more orbs, rest of the details dont really matter.

you know the top players in DM have only a fraction of the aim and skill that the top QL players have?
Either way, I don't wanna fight. I love DM too. It's a great game, and I love the movement, and the maps, and the graphics.
I think QL would be better with an updated engine.
I can't wait to see some more of these new maps you guys are making.

you know the top players in DM have only a fraction of the aim and skill that the top QL players have?
Either way, I don't wanna fight. I love DM too. It's a great game, and I love the movement, and the maps, and the graphics.
I think QL would be better with an updated engine.
I can't wait to see some more of these new maps you guys are making.

K but no.

You werent around in the FIOS days but about 2-3 of the best U.S. Quake 3 players tried to transition to HL2DM and failed miserably, most notably Lost Cause whose aim was godly in Quake 3 but sucked about 10 wieners in hl2dm. Rumors were Fatal1ty tried it and gave up after two days. Games are different, different skills.

and some stoop as low as to get addicted to WoW.

wanna fight bro?

and some stoop as low as to get addicted to WoW.

wanna fight bro?

it's sad, cuz I play WoW.... *cough*
only 1 lvl 80 though. And I'm not addicted.

probably terrible at it too

you know the top players in DM have only a fraction of the aim and skill that the top QL players have?
Either way, I don't wanna fight. I love DM too. It's a great game, and I love the movement, and the maps, and the graphics.
I think QL would be better with an updated engine.
I can't wait to see some more of these new maps you guys are making.

K but no.

You werent around in the FIOS days but about 2-3 of the best U.S. Quake 3 players tried to transition to HL2DM and failed miserably, most notably Lost Cause whose aim was godly in Quake 3 but sucked about 10 wieners in hl2dm. Rumors were Fatal1ty tried it and gave up after two days. Games are different, different skills.

Ok, you're very right about that. The strafing is WAYYYYYY different.

probably terrible at it too

well not terrible, but not amazing either. only have 2 t10 pieces. but fully gemmed and enchanted. 2754 wow-heroes gear score.

Va|iums QuakeLive is gay...

Moving along, team em0 is proud to announce we are working on tweaking dm_lockdown_CRAZY_FINAL

and after that one folks (drum rolls) its dm_lockdown_omfg_yetanother_fucking_version_r1

probably terrible at it too

well not terrible, but not amazing either. only have 2 t10 pieces. but fully gemmed and enchanted. 2754 wow-heroes gear score.

i heard t10 is hard to get :/

stop hijacking the thread

you know the top players in DM have only a fraction of the aim and skill that the top QL players have?
Either way, I don't wanna fight. I love DM too. It's a great game, and I love the movement, and the maps, and the graphics.
I think QL would be better with an updated engine.
I can't wait to see some more of these new maps you guys are making.

K but no.

You werent around in the FIOS days but about 2-3 of the best U.S. Quake 3 players tried to transition to HL2DM and failed miserably, most notably Lost Cause whose aim was godly in Quake 3 but sucked about 10 wieners in hl2dm. Rumors were Fatal1ty tried it and gave up after two days. Games are different, different skills.

Ok, you're very right about that. The strafing is WAYYYYYY different.

So apparently giving an example of Quake's #5 ranked player at the time in the world failing to transition wasnt enough. What if I was to say I was a Quake 3 and QL player myself. The differences in these games are almost night in day in a million different ways. Even the strafe jumping velocity, timing and manuevers are different and limited.

K but no.

You werent around in the FIOS days but about 2-3 of the best U.S. Quake 3 players tried to transition to HL2DM and failed miserably, most notably Lost Cause whose aim was godly in Quake 3 but sucked about 10 wieners in hl2dm. Rumors were Fatal1ty tried it and gave up after two days. Games are different, different skills.

Ok, you're very right about that. The strafing is WAYYYYYY different.

So apparently giving an example of Quake's #5 ranked player at the time in the world failing to transition wasnt enough. What if I was to say I was a Quake 3 and QL player myself. The differences in these games are almost night in day in a million different ways. Even the strafe jumping velocity, timing and manuevers are different and limited.

Yeah, I know you play QL ^__^

probably terrible at it too

well not terrible, but not amazing either. only have 2 t10 pieces. but fully gemmed and enchanted. 2754 wow-heroes gear score.

i heard t10 is hard to get :/

Yeah, Weeks and Weeks of doing Dailies, and weekly's, and ICC 10-15 runs, and VoA 10-25 runs. some T10 is 95Frost Emblems,...you can get 23 Frost emblems a week.

you know the top players in DM have only a fraction of the aim and skill that the top QL players have?
Either way, I don't wanna fight. I love DM too. It's a great game, and I love the movement, and the maps, and the graphics.
I think QL would be better with an updated engine.
I can't wait to see some more of these new maps you guys are making.

The thing about quakes is they dont have huge hitreg issues, and its actually easier to aim in them on the count of the player models are so fucking big on ur screen compared to hl2dm. Quakeplayers also dont have to aim for tiny heads. Then again if u dont have aim u can just spam physics and explosions =-P

Well Fearsome saved me alot of writing; most of what he said is pretty spot on. Also Valars example of "dm_old" made me lol (and its true, of course).

The main problem ive noticed though, with respect to maps getting league level recognition, is the gap between mappers and players- specifically, most top league players have minimal to nonexistant mapping skills, and the most solid mappers dont play at a league level, inevitably leading to a great many good looking / performing maps that just dont hold up in high level scrims.

And before someone mentions player feedback: Its often not enough. Once the recommended edits reach a certain threshold, it becomes a matter of either rebuilding the entire map from scratch (something few mappers are willing to do, unsurprisingly) or consigning it to the pub bin. The map needs to be build for a specific playstyle from the ground up, or get very lucky with a layout that can be molded into something competitive.

Btw, Avalon was indeed a fun map with alot of promise; too bad the mapper insisted his final version was superior (it wasnt), and refused to work on or allow anyone else to work on the league-preferred b1.

and that is exactly the point. with willingness from the players side, collaboration with the mappers can produce solid competitive maps. i can't stress the importance of working together to the same end enough. This is a win-win as both the players get new maps they like and are up to their standards which in turn rejuvenates the community and the mappers get a chance at something creative and exciting, get recognition for their work and the game thrives.

There seems to be a lot of demented scholarship into way folks like what and stuff about not being able to change maps, and the psychology and etymology of Lost Village, and explanations why some terrible maps became...

It's all nonsense. Who gives a shit.

1. Find an equitable way to pick a list of stable good competitions maps folks want to play in.
2. Play those maps in competition.

There. All done. Step 1, Step 2, Win/Lose.

There seems to be a lot of demented scholarship into way folks like what and stuff about not being able to change maps, and the psychology and etymology of Lost Village, and explanations why some terrible maps became...

It's all nonsense. Who gives a shit.

1. Find an equitable way to pick a list of stable good competitions maps folks want to play in.
2. Play those maps in competition.

There. All done. Step 1, Step 2, Win/Lose.

bro it's been tried before. not working.

Don't worry, I am learning how to map so this thread will seem REALLY silly in a few months (or more like years, I know.)
You all will look back at all those shitty maps you HAD to play and laaaaaaaaaaaafff.
Good times.

That and I am really good a communicating with mappers, even ones that speak English as a second language (abnok.)
Also, if there was not a contest going on right now that was occupying Boshed's free-time, we would already have a rape-ass revision of dm_helix in its FINAL stage by now.

It can wait, and I really do think that he and vitaminG will have a spectacular map. (That is just my personal speculation.)
Then when we would have only one good, new, map - we will rather have two. At least.
Meh, maybe only one more besides boshed's two; I am not getting my hopes too high for this game's community.
It could be four new-and-damn-good maps if I finished airfusion already.

Still, this is a joke of a game.
Unbalanced weapons + shitty, fetal physics engine = crappy and unprofessionally made game.
Only thing marginally good was the movement system; even it was a bit too slow for what it should/could have been, but as we all know the bhop possibilities happened by accident.

So what can you do?





oh, and @___________@

That banana man haunts my dreams.

dm coax is like great

oh, and @___________@

Why do you mods and admins have to cramp mah style?
It may be small, but it is still beautiful.
Please accept that fact.

dm coax is like great

Fearsome is pretty spot on. There are plenty of really good maps that get ignored come league time. Some very old maps, that are as good as the rest and could still bring something fresh to the table, get overlooked because of timing and the lack of a popular clan backing it. A lot of it has to do with the fact that pubbing in hl2dm has gone to shit and pubbing is how many random clan players learn to love certain maps. There is no joy in playing a new map in a league for someone that hasnt played it much or hasnt had much time to learn the map and gets destroyed on it by the other team in league play. The map isnt going to be liked much by the team that gets killed on it.

The older league maps that, didnt have a clan or admin (from a clan) pushing them, have stood the test of time because everyone knows them from pubbing and scrimming them in the days when players played this game for 2 to 10 hours every day and there were lots of noobatrons around. What would work best would be to have mappers fix up the older maps that have really small issues relating to competitive play and use those maps. Get a hold of the mapper that made them and fix the fuckers if they arent willing. That way, you have old maps that everyone remembers playing and knows really well and are fresh when it comes to league play. This game is really old and new maps just dont work like they did 4 years ago because they arent played enough. I really think a mapper for this game would spend his time better reworking older maps to better suit leagues then making new maps that no one is willing to play.

<long post>

Completely agree.

in CU, we chose to use dm_helix(boshed) for 3v3 and dm_hydroponicz(pigpopper) for 2v2

I <3 ghosties

And before someone mentions player feedback: Its often not enough. Once the recommended edits reach a certain threshold, it becomes a matter of either rebuilding the entire map from scratch (something few mappers are willing to do, unsurprisingly) or consigning it to the pub bin. The map needs to be build for a specific playstyle from the ground up, or get very lucky with a layout that can be molded into something competitive.

V. true, for example look at how many popular maps are remakes from hldm - and they work simply because the gameplay is tried, tested and solid even with the differing movement.

with willingness from the players side, collaboration with the mappers can produce solid competitive maps. i can't stress the importance of working together to the same end enough.

The idea is solid but the main problem (for me at least) is that a lot of the time the players themselves can't agree on what they want in a map, differing playstyles etc.

Also, if there was not a contest going on right now that was occupying Boshed's free-time, we would already have a rape-ass revision of dm_helix in its FINAL stage by now.

Seriously people, let peeps like New Guy et al have a good run around your creations before you even think of releasing. This guy has single handedly given me more good feedback than just about everybody I know combined.

I really think a mapper for this game would spend his time better reworking older maps to better suit leagues then making new maps that no one is willing to play.

You're probably right but I for one would find that boring as hell. The fun for me is creating something new and without that I'd lose interest fairly quickly.

You're probably right but I for one would find that boring as hell. The fun for me is creating something new and without that I'd lose interest fairly quickly.

Well, I never said a mapper for hl2dm these days was going to like it lol.

I really think a mapper for this game would spend his time better reworking older maps to better suit leagues then making new maps that no one is willing to play.

Probably wouldnt be an easy task considering you cant find the original mappers for many of the maps, let alone get in touch with them and get their permission or rework a map. Id be pretty pissed if I found out someone reworked and released a map I made without consulting me on it.

Also, if there was not a contest going on right now that was occupying Boshed's free-time, we would already have a rape-ass revision of dm_helix in its FINAL stage by now.

Seriously people, let peeps like New Guy et al have a good run around your creations before you even think of releasing. This guy has single handedly given me more good feedback than just about everybody I know combined.

dont get too attached to him, new guy has given a lot of guys "help" single handedly.

I guess your right on those few points but most of the deathmatch community are not people who play in the competitions (yes I know you said league maps, hear me on this). I really think that people should be more focused on making maps for normal servers. ->
This includes servers such as Jake's Fun House, The Senior Slayers and Freedom Fighter clan servers (also if you like Riddick's server in Aus now the Hamlet of Cryon).

It would be interesting if someone actually make a map that is made for low gravity, and someone that creates the ultimate noob map. These would probably be played more than any other map that was specifically made for pro players. However Pro maps are usually played by regulars anyway.

As for new maps being unfamiliar, I love exploring new maps and getting used to the new gameplay. Honestly Lockdown and maps like Lostarena are becoming a little boring.