Christianity

So, I know this has most likely been talked about before but, this time I would like to hear everything (if it applies to you) that you have against christianity specifically. This is not a flaming thread. I'm looking for mature debates where you don't personally attack others or take anything offensively. I just want to hear your views because I love talking about this kind of stuff, hoping to look for some cool discussions.

btw I don't want to hear "RELIGION IS STUPID THEREFORE I DON'T LIKE IT THEREFOR GOD DOESN'T EXIST" I want an actual intelligent response that is backed up with historical facts or inconsistencies in the Bible or whatever your thoughts are etc. and if you do point out something in the Bible please cite it or do your best to be accurate. Thanks!

I would like christianity much more if churches were not involved. Do it on your own time in your own home I say. I also hate the fact that churches are not taxed and preach about giving 10% of your hard earned income (regardless of how poor you are) to the church or you will face the reaper. The sad thing is, the masses that attend church buy into what is being preached like they are hearing it from someone special, when that person is no better then they are (or banging 8 yr old boys). I personally dont really care what anyone believes in, but I personally have a very hard time believing in something that nobody can prove exists. Im sure there are higher powers in the Universe, but they have nothing to do with the bible or what is being preached in churches. One day, science will prove that we all came from star dust and end this debate. The funny thing is, people will still believe in god because many people are weak minded and cant handle living without the idea that someone is watching over them and that their life has some type of meaning.

When it comes to the radical bible pushers, you'll get thrown off my porch bringing that shit to my door. Same goes for Atheists that like to push an agenda. Stfu and just live your life to the fullest and dont worry about anyone else but yourself.

this is for u - guys who like to talk bs http://translate.googleusercontent.com/ ... YKKRTLrZAQ

Why else would we have the cafeteria?

Thanks for the response Sacrifist. So just to be clear, i'm looking for the details... not "I don't like this or that about Christianity". Just because you don't like something about it does not prove or disprove or make any point about the falseness of the religion itself, and thats what i'm after here. Thats what i'm looking for.

Sacrifist wrote: I also hate the fact that churches are not taxed and preach about giving 10% of your hard earned income (regardless of how poor you are) to the church or you will face the reaper.

Exactly where does it say give 10% or you will be killed? or not go to heaven/hell or whatever you mean by that.

Sacrifist wrote:The sad thing is, the masses that attend church buy into what is being preached like they are hearing it from someone special, when that person is no better then they are (or banging 8 yr old boys).

Thats very true, sadly its the same way with being in any position of power or ruling. It's undeniably Human nature to manipulate the system, if its religion or any kind of Government system to get what you want, and its easy if your in such a way that people just take your word about things.

Sacrifist wrote:I personally have a very hard time believing in something that nobody can prove exists. I'm sure there are higher powers in the Universe, but they have nothing to do with the bible or what is being preached in churches. One day, science will prove that we all came from star dust and end this debate. The funny thing is, people will still believe in god because many people are weak minded and cant handle living without the idea that someone is watching over them and that their life has some type of meaning.

So... your saying that one day science will prove we came from stardust,and I agree that is possible... So all I have gathered from you is that you don't like churches or some of the things that are being preached so you conclude:

"Im sure there are higher powers in the Universe, but they have nothing to do with the bible or what is being preached in churches"

your just saying you don't like it therefore its not true. You haven't said any facts that can relate to the falseness of christianity. just because you don't like something doesn't mean its not true.

And about the all christians are weak minded comments... please remember this is a mature discussion and to not attack anyone, Iv met some very awesome people that are christians before.

well at least religion can explain everything unlike science which is limited. The fact that certain religions are on the incease while Christianity is in decline is kinda sad tbh. there is absolutely nothing wrong with having a belief as long as we do not scorn others for believing something otherwise. Despite massive evidence to the contrary, I still believe in a God, its personal and christianity is perfect for me even though I find other religions interesting.




btw who made the stardust?

Briggs wrote:...your just saying you don't like it therefore its not true. You haven't said any facts that can relate to the falseness of christianity. just because you don't like something doesn't mean its not true.

Its impossible to prove any god, religion, faerie tale or [insert mythological subject here] is false. However, the burden isnt on disbelievers to prove something is false, its on the believers to prove their belief to be true. So far, and unsurprisingly, no religion has managed this.

http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/Dragon.htm

Hence, we come to my dislike, and its simple: religion(s) end up at least partially married to state in a great many countries, resulting in laws based on what amounts to complete, and often absurd, fantasy. Completely seperate religion from state- that is, religion and its followers get no more or less legal standing than the-aliens-are-coming cults / furry communities or those believing in santa claus / elves / atlantis etc- and i would no longer particularly care about religion in general (though im sure religious people would still regularly manage to disgust me on an individual level).

Western Civilization is inextricably tied to Christianity. Innate freedoms and civil rights are part of the Christian ethos. Christianity has been a value of enormous importance.

Despite some problems inherent in all things human, Christianity is and has been a huge plus.
Folks can say what they will about religion but no Christianity, No America.

please lock this b4 it turns into a pointless 10 page flame war. we've done the religion thread thing b4

The preachings of Jesus were the farthest thing from Christianity or any organized religion for that matter, in three ways mainly:

Belief
Possession
Relationships

Belief: Jesus preached that each man and woman should seek their own belief and find the God within and not without and turn to no man or image for proof of God or worship no man or image whereas ALL religions are built around rules bearing punishment and prize, appointed messengers of the "truth" only through which one can connect to God.

Possession: Jesus made the well known allegory in which it is easier to drive a camel through the eye of a needle than it is a rich man to the kingdom of God. Jesus deemed possessions a burden and a curse to seekers of anything supernatural whereas organized religion, among which Christianity being chief, is completely based around possessions, taxing of the population and status. The Catholic church is one of the most powerful financial institutions ever in the history of mankind since the dark ages and it hasn't changed even today.

Relationships: Jesus preached of Love of one's self and of one another, of turning the other cheek in the face of wrong and never taught in favor of retaliation or revenge whereas organized religion, Islam and Christianity being in the foremost, have unleashed hell on whole populations within and without their motherlands, they've occupied others, committed genocides and declared, each after their own nature, to be the one and only route to God, deeming all the others infidels.
Religion, Christianity in the western world and Islam in the eastern, has always been the biggest promoter or chauvinism and class ("we" are better than "them").

It's interesting to note that while Islam and Judaism actually went back and "fixed" the scriptures to align with the "rules of God" as power crazed and filthy rich priests wrote them, Christianity didn't even bother "fixing" anything in the now known as the Old Testament, they just went ahead and wrote a whole new book.
Funnier to note that even this "New" book is not only NOT HOLY but also based on the heavily edited "Old" one.

A personal take on religion in general: Grownups who are emotionally and psychologically mature do not turn to religion or cults of any kind, nor to Politics. for the most part. food for thought.

As for proof of God, one word if i may since this is isn't a debate about spirituality. I too agree no such proof will ever be found; Logic has it that an entity so great and encompassing as that would be dwelling in levels far beyond the reach of our 5 senses and mere 3 dimensional research tools. Once we reach out and breakthrough our current dimension, and i'm more than positive we will, we will not need proof.

Let me know if you need citation or reference to the above Briggs.

I went to a Christian school from second to sixth grade. I was told to accept Jesus into my heart to be saved. I did it twice. Prayed to God and ask to be forgiven for all my sins and accept Jesus into my heart. I felt nothing different.

I started to look into other things. How were there so many religions, but nobody knew what the correct one is. In reality, all religions are still believing in a mythical creature that can't be proved.

The craziest thing that gets me every single time is that nobody will know until they die, and nobody has come back from the dead. So nobody is going to know.

Another thing that I dislike about Christianity is that they think that the Earth started three or four thousand years ago. People have carbon dated skeletons that were alive millions of years ago.

http://iho.asu.edu/lucy


I'd like to see this citation, Val.

Valar wrote: Funnier to note that even this "New" book is not only NOT HOLY but also based on the heavily edited "Old" one.

Personal opinion: I'm sick of Christianity in general.

My whole school career, elementary and high school, I was forced to take religion classes and attend church at least once per week. By the time I graduated I made up my mind that the religion I was educated in was outdated. Most of the time it brought me more stress than relief. I'm still spiritual when it comes to many things but I dont concentrate on one thing.

Anyway my allegiance now lies with Cthulhu.

Thanks for the post Val

badinfluence wrote:Another thing that I dislike about Christianity is that they think that the Earth started three or four thousand years ago.

That is the biggest misconception about christianity ever.

Ko-Tao wrote:furry communities or those believing in santa claus

Link

lead wrote:Despite massive evidence to the contrary

What evidence? Im tired of being told that and then it just being left there.

{EE}chEmicalbuRn wrote:please lock this b4 it turns into a pointless 10 page flame war. we've done the religion thread thing b4

no flaming yet. and this is more specific then a "religion thread"

I'm just being told over and over what people don't like. I know what is not liked about chrisianity. I have things I don't like about chrisianity. I'm asking for the itygritty details. Facts and sources, not feelings and opinions generalizing christians as a whole. I'm playing Devil's advocate on chrisianity to see how it ends up.

lead wrote:btw whomade the stardust?

lol

well Briggs i guess your right there...i mean in terms of the bible. I suppose its quite easy to criticise it as there are numerous scientific examples such as carbon dating vs timeline of bible; bible timeline vs pre- bible civilisations such as Chinese. We can't really say there isn't a God as its a metaphysical presence rather than physical. Next people will be saying there isn't a Santa!

Ko-Tao wrote:Its impossible to prove any god, religion, faerie tale or [insert mythological subject here] is false. However, the burden isnt on disbelievers to prove something is false

I was just watching an episode of Boston legal, guy was in guantanamo bay for 2 years, beaten and tortured(unjust). In court the opposing council asked him on the stand "Can you prove you're not a terrorist?", guy responds with "Prove a negative? Are we required to do that now?". Seems to fit the religion thing.

One huge problem here is the translation line goes like this, Aramaic, Ancient Hebrew, Roman Standard, Greek, English.

Maybe not that exact order, but "lost in translation" is a factor, for all we know we could be reading it "all your religions are belong to us".

Furthermore, peoples manipulation to suit their outlook adds to that, do we know what we are reading?

[EYE] Valar wrote: Belief: Jesus preached that each man and woman should seek their own belief and find the God within and not without and turn to no man or image for proof of God or worship no man or image

Agreed, Jesus or whatever you believe him to be wanted people to believe through faith not through proof. He didnt want a bunch of mindless automatons, he wanted people to make up their own mind.

[EYE] Valar wrote:whereas ALL religions are built around rules bearing punishment and prize, appointed messengers of the "truth" only through which one can connect to God.

Unfortunately "religion" as we know it today has turned into a buisness. Religion and churches rely on people being somewhat subserviant to the church. I have to agree with Sacrifist in that I dislike this part of today's religion. I firmly believe anyone can worship God in their own way, beit with the King James Version of the Bible or the Koran or whatever. You dont need to go to a building with a steeple and have some talking head lecturing you to get closer to God.

[EYE] Valar wrote:As for proof of God, one word if i may since this is isn't a debate about spirituality. I too agree no such proof will ever be found; Logic has it that an entity so great and encompassing as that would be dwelling in levels far beyond the reach of our 5 senses and mere 3 dimensional research tools. Once we reach out and breakthrough our current dimension, and i'm more than positive we will, we will not need proof.

Proof such as we mean it here does not exist. There are those that believe that the Shroud of Turin is proof of Jesus' ressurection and proof of his existence, but there is much debate over it and it has not been explained by science yet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shroud_of_Turin

This is going to sound extremely outlandish to some, but many that claim to have "found God", they dont need such proof. They claim to have felt his presence with them through prayer or through speaking in tongues. I have never experienced it myself, but I have witnessed this as a child and I will say that it was not a faked incident nor was it induced by drugs or anything else. For those people it was a very profound experience and it is all the proof they need.

Christianity is an unremarkable institutionalized human superstition similar to hundreds of religions before it, and hundreds of religions after it when the American empire and Christianity crumble. Christianity like many religions has been used to justify the "taming" and the "civilizing" of humans. Under pagan rule it was believed Zeus gave Alexander the Great the godly power to conquer much of Europe, in the height of Roman empire under paganism it was thought gods like Neptune justified the conquering of much of Europe, Zoroastronianism under the Sassanid empire in Persia conquered much of the eastern Roman empire under the premise of Mazda the zoroastrian God who "gave" the Sassanids the heavenly gift to conquer and "civilize" eastern Rome. Under the prophet Muhammed Arabian conquerers the Ottomans believed Muhammed gifted them the supernatural ability to conquer and "civilize" the western Europe, Genghis Khan under Shamanism believed he was chosen by the gods to conquer the entire world, and now under Christianity it has been used in the TDR administration to conquer Latin America to "civilize" them.

TL;DR, religion is a tool, a tool many leaders like Constantine the Great, Tecumseh, Napoleon, the Sassanids of Persia all used for war but the more documents come out the more it shows that it turns out they never really believed in it. Machievelli teaches us one of the strongest tools to control and subdue populations is community superstition or ritual, so as long as large populations of mediocre citizens live, so too will religion.

A map of the worlds major religions, and within each of them hundreds of more subsets of religions within these all believing they are the true chosen religion.

badinfluence wrote: I'd like to see this citation, Val.

Valar wrote: Funnier to note that even this "New" book is not only NOT HOLY but also based on the heavily edited "Old" one.

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament

The 16th century saw the rise of Protestantism and an explosion of translations of the New (and Old) Testament into the vernacular.

http://www.gotquestions.org/difference- ... ments.html

and another good read
http://www.bidstrup.com/bible.htm

BTW, from the later page. here's an interesting quote expanding on a somewhat known fact - Jesus didn't create Christianity or preached for Religion. it was Saul, later Paul.

In about 50 C.E., a remarkable event occurred, which ultimately changed the course of human history. In Antioch, the local Jesus Movement suddenly and quickly transformed itself from a social and political reform movement into a full-blown religion. As this occurred, a remarkable conversion happened - or maybe the transformation occurred because Saul of Tarsus was "converted" to a new religious vision of his own and evangelized the group as Paul the Apostle. Whichever way it happened, we will probably never know. But secular scholars are pretty much agreed that this group included the first true Christians and that Paul, a Gnostic, was one of the first if not the first convert. And the Antioch Jesus Movement became the first of what modern scholars now refer to as the Christ Cults, the variety of Pauline-inspired cults prior to their consolidation under a single authority centuries later into the Catholic church.

Another quotation from that page about how, quite possibly, Catholic Christianity came about

The reasons for Paul's conversion is a question that deserves discussion here. Saul, the pre-conversion Roman Jew, was a man with an intense self loathing. He doesn't tell us why, but time and again, he describes himself as a sinner who was far beyond any possible redemption. A man who stood condemned in the eyes of God. A man clearly destined for hell, and there's nothing he himself could do about it, especially since his body's 'member' would not cooperate. It's not his persecution of the Christians that creates the self loathing; rather it is the other way around. Something was eating at Saul. It clearly related to behavior, because he describes himself as being a sinner.

Funny yet sad that what will in later years be the banner under which so many lives will be sacrificed and great many others distorted is just a silhouette of a very troubled and low self esteemed person - Paul's shadow: the Catholic Church.

Well, Christians follow the New Testament, which trumps the Old.

And i don't see the point about Paul and the New Testament. Of course Jesus didn't write it. he wasn't like Mohammed, who was more interested in Power and Glory and self aggrandizement.

And all this talk of the Catholic Church. It applies more to Europe than the States, which are largely WASP.

And it shouldn't surprise folks that Christians are not perfect and some are materialistic.
There are a great many Rich Americans with Great WORKS, which is the essence of Christianity.
They surely have given much to the poor and disadvantaged.

Every point i ever see about Christianity is usually a lot of nonsense. Much is hyperbolic and shortsighted.
It almost always shortchanged and it's value completely underestimated.
The teachings of Christ pervade our law, our customs, our ethos.
The good Church does around the world is incalculable.
Americans are generous. Very generous and big-hearted people.
I believe Christ has much to do with it.

Simple fact is, religion fills a need and that is all there is to it.
You don't have to like or follow it.

from http://www.bidstrup.com/bible.htm

Creation Of The Bible As We Know It and Yet Another Revision

320 C.E. to 1330 C.E.

In the midst of all this intellectual turmoil in the church, Constantine gave to Eusebius, the bishop of Caesaria (a Roman port on the coast of modern Israel), a little assignment. Put together some scriptures for the emperor to present to the new churches he was constructing at his new capital of Constantinople in time for his new festival of the resurrection, to be called "Easter." Fifty copies, please.

please. do read on.

hai guise

As argumentalbrokenrecordepictrollalizer says, it fills a need. And i dont like that.
One thing u could look into briggs is if anyone has ever based a study on the fact that alot of ppl go to religion to fill an emotional need, specifically distress, depression and trauma.
The reason i dislike this is because the emotional ones who find religion tend to become really intense about preeching it to the point of seeming crazy and its fucking annoying.
I realise this is not exactly the kind of thing u wanted to be commented on but argumentaliser lead me down there.

Another thing im curious about is whether religion will slowly die over time as each generation becomes more informed and less emotional, or even whether that has allready started. Life gets easier as technology progresses, easy lives = less tragedy = less emotion = hopefully less religion.
And once more i am not against spirituality, but i am against religion.

Pernicious wrote:

Another thing im curious about is whether religion will slowly die over time as each generation becomes more informed and less emotional, or even whether that has allready started. Life gets easier as technology progresses, easy lives = less tragedy = less emotion = hopefully less religion.
And once more i am not against spirituality, but i am against religion.

Every major religion in the world is declining except Islam, in every country except the Arabic countries. All of my friends who were raised Christian don't even believe in it anymore....

Not true. Christianity is not declining. Islam is the number 2 growth religion.

-------------------
"As argumentalbrokenrecordepictrollalizer says, it fills a need. And i dont like that."

Edited because responding to this repeated ignorant nonsense is a useless endeavor.

"And once more i am not against spirituality, but i am against religion."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA

bro, spirituality = concept. religion = organization.

The Argumentalizer wrote:"And once more i am not against spirituality, but i am against religion."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA

Yea?
You arent thinking that one cant exist without the other are you?

Briggs wrote:Thanks for the post Val

badinfluence wrote:Another thing that I dislike about Christianity is that they think that the Earth started three or four thousand years ago.

That is the biggest misconception about christianity ever.

Biggest misconception?


Genesis Chapter 1 Verse 20-25
And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky." 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth." 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

Where did the dinosaurs come from that have been dated back so long ago? If humans and dinosaurs were living at the same time, then how come humans didn't die out as well?

And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

I never understood why people (in my experience, especially militant atheists) care so much about what other people believe. I don't really like to label myself, but if I had to, I'd call myself an agnostic. If you held a gun to my head, I'd tell you god doesn't exist, but who the fuck am I to say, with any modicum of certainty, that god does or doesn't exist? I don't know and no one whose ever lived one earth knows. To me, it's a waste of time to think about it. Even if god does exist, it probably isn't even something that we as humans can conceive of, meaning every religion is wrong. No ideology is better than any other (that includes atheism and agnosticism) because all are equally clueless to any grand, cosmic reality.

If you want to talk about socio-political consequences and malign intentions or auspicious intentions of people involved with religion, that's a whole other story and something that can actually be historically chronicled. Just because Pope Innocent III basically had a political monopoly on Europe in the 12th/13th centuries doesn't mean that on a theological level, Christianity is wrong or all Christians are misguided fools. Or because some nutjob pastor in Florida wants to burn the Qur'an. They are people making their own choices and to me, it shouldn't be used to say that the theology is somehow wrong. The theology itself has plenty of holes to poke at and as a whole, but entire religions aren't silly because, in my opinion, every person has their own unique conceptions of religion. I don't think two people have an exact identical world/cosmic view. So if you want to criticize religion, it's hard, I think, to do it on a wide scale. That's why you can't make blanket statements like "__________ reason is my problem with Christianity." It would make sense to say "_______________ reason is my problem with Pat Robertson."

But, again, on a purely theological basis, I think it's a waste of time to argue about it. Nobody knows shit. Hence when you say, "I want an actual intelligent response that is backed up with historical facts," it's an IMPOSSIBLE standard to meet. There is no real history of what is covered by theology. It's all secondary source material. All you're talking about is human conceptions of religion and human ideas about theology. I don't understand what this is trying to accomplish. Are you expecting to say, "Pope Alexander VI held orgies at the Vatican and was a greasy bastard, therefore Christianity is wrong?" That doesn't prove that Christianity is wrong; it proves that Alexander VI was a greasy bastard. There's obviously no reputable primary source material about God. The Bible's a really shitty primary source, too. If you want to use that fact as a reason why Christianity is BS, it's definitely fair. But religion is based on faith, not history. To say the Bible is historically inaccurate is probably not going to mean much to someone who believes in its theological message. Maybe it's fun for some folks just to shoot the shit about it, but I'll never understand why people actually take it seriously or pretend to have all the answers. Those are indictments on one's character in my opinion and not of a religion on the whole. I guess the point is that I don't think it's a reasonable line of argument to say that religion x, on a theological level, is stupid because person y and z did bad things. I admittedly didn't read the thread because I doubt anything new has been said, but I see this line of argument pretty often in religion debate. But again, I think people should just live their lives without worrying about it. If you want to believe in a god because it makes you happy, go for it. If you want to believe there is no god and that makes you happy, knock yourself out. Who cares.

Sorry for rambling, just my two cents about why people are silly. And that's the point; people, not religions, are silly.

The Argumentalizer wrote:Not true. Christianity is not declining. Islam is the number 2 growth religion.

-------------------
"As argumentalbrokenrecordepictrollalizer says, it fills a need. And i dont like that."

Edited because responding to this repeated ignorant nonsense is a useless endeavor.

Source? Here's a recent public study showing otherwise http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm

BTW, I'm taking a political science 390 stats class and I must begin choosing a topic for empirical analysis. I think I'm going to write it on why religion is declining in the west, but growing in the middle east. I can't put any opinion into the topic because its mathematical models only, so I'll be sure to share my final results after I finish the semester. One thing that is for sure as I read through articles is that in almost every single western country including the United States religion is declining, I'm willing to hedge a bet a big reason belongs to internet and media censorship much more prevalent in middle eastern and eastern countries.

Um, NO, i do not believe spirituality exists without SPIRIT, of which atheists are completely devoid.

It's like saying you believe in the Supernatural but not anything beyond what the limits of science can prove.
It's utter nonsense, but then, most Atheists are full of that anyways.

Also, i challenge completely your notion that mankind is better without God or religion.

It's like saying chaos is a great structure.
Mankind could very well become an evil godless bunch of violent selfish monkeys.
And when they die, they will be all dressed up and nowhere to go.

As for religion equals organization, that is nonsense.
The Amish don't have any organization!

Maybe you are talking about the Catholic Church, of which i am no expert, being a Methodist.
I don't find a church necessary to read the teachings.

So,that is nonsense.

There is a very good reason Islam is growing. It is virulent, violent and expansionist.
Just look at the Fucking Muslim World!
Maybe you dhimmus should get on board.
Islam REALLY doesn't like Liberals, women, gays, abortionists...

Maybe stop claiming nonsense about Christ and see the ME for what it is.

The Argumentalizer wrote:There is a very good reason Islam is growing. It is virulent, violent and expansionist.
Just look at the Fucking Muslim World!
Maybe you dhimmus should get on board.
Islam REALLY doesn't like Liberals, women, gays, abortionists...

Maybe stop claiming nonsense about Christ and see the ME for what it is.

True! The only thing more disgusting then Christianity (about equal in backwardness though) is Islam, who actually manages to discriminate against gays and abortionists harder then Christians do.

"that in almost every single western country including the United States religion is declining"

Rather than propaganda, maybe you post some actual STATS.

They exist. You could start with estimates on tithing by Americans and the number of churches over the last half century.
I am positive they do not support America becoming less religious.

Europe, yes, they are enlightened liberal socialist nanny states who don't care about anything except their benefits.
They also have NEGATIVE BIRTH RATES.
Europe is literally a dying culture.

The Argumentalizer wrote:Rather than propaganda, maybe you post some actual STATS.


They also have NEGATIVE BIRTH RATES.
Europe is literally a dying culture.

Sure http://www.americanhumanist.org/hnn/arc ... &article=0

America doesn't have a declining birth rate yet religion is declining here too.

U can challenge the notion that the world would be better off without religion, but frankly all i have to do is point my finger to the middle east and i have won the argument. Also u make statements about it being rubbish yet your notion that the world is a better place because of religion is a much harder one to prove, in the end both notions are pointless to argue. The future will tell.

As for atheists not having spirits, is stupid mainly because u used the word spirit.

And spirituality can exist both without organisation or "teachings". Reading a book and trusting in it makes u religious, just considering all the possibilities can make u spiritual, and open rather then closed minded, this is exactly wat Einstein promoted. Rightfully so.

"And when they die, they will be all dressed up and nowhere to go."

You know this do you?
Thats the religion talking....

Impala, you're equating the ME with Islam and that's wrong. Last i checked Israel is in the dead center of the ME and we're not Muslims, cover up women in purdahs and burn infidels.
Also your view of the Muslim world is wrong. not all Muslims are asshats. what you see from where you sir are extreme fanatics - not societies.
In truth that largest parts of those backwards societies you see on TV are for the most part only silent populations under murderous regimes. not angry mobs. you would probably be silent when you can't rebel and can't speak up. the majority of the population in Iran for example don't share the same views as their government. same goes for Iraq, etc. heh i've had more than once people asking me on internet chats if i had a camel and if i had TV when they heard i was from Isreal.
A lot of misconceptions AND misinformation abroad.

The Argumentalizer wrote:

And all this talk of the Catholic Church. It applies more to Europe than the States, which are largely WASP.

like that big land mass to the south of you called central and south america m8?

I live in America. That's South America and Central America. Reply to them if you like.

The Argumentalizer wrote:I live in America. That's South America and Central America. Reply to them if you like.

actually its the United States of America hombre i think they are closer than europe nes pas?

El Argumentilizer... what a Hombre!!

Meanwhile France passes a law today banning veils and burqas. Another victory for religious tolerance in glorious Europe! Nevermind most women in non-repressive Middle Eastern countries who wear burqas do so to assert their own independence and ability to choose their own lifestyle. Seriously, I cannot stand Americans who look at Europe as being this collective purveyor of liberty and progress.

Well, they're certainly a collective. Let's all join the EU! It totally won't erode our own sovereignty and make politics more confusing.

But yes, I agree completely with tlc. Europe's way more messed up than the US. And the US is pretty messed up right now, so that's saying something.

The Argumentalizer wrote:Well, Christians follow the New Testament, which trumps the Old.

Bullshit, the Old testament is a much better read lol. My problem is, Im surrounded by Catholics...

Sacrifist wrote:

The Argumentalizer wrote:Well, Christians follow the New Testament, which trumps the Old.

Bullshit, the Old testament is a much better read lol. My problem is, Im surrounded by Catholics...

ha you should try staying in Belfast

tlc wrote:Meanwhile France passes a law today banning veils and burqas. Another victory for religious tolerance in glorious Europe! Nevermind most women in non-repressive Middle Eastern countries who wear burqas do so to assert their own independence and ability to choose their own lifestyle. Seriously, I cannot stand Americans who look at Europe as being this collective purveyor of liberty and progress.

there aren't many Middle East non-repressive countries tlc...they may wear a 'برقع' bhurka but they don't have the same freedom of expression as many do. Many journalists are either assasinated, tortured or under house arrest just for daring to speak out for human rights. Sarkozy is a dangerous little man yes, but at least his intention is overt and can be challenged through the democratic process. I feel appalled about the the issues in France too, but you can't compare it to the middle east (sorry Val in advance). In fact Turkey allows the banning the wearing of the bhurka in many of its universities and has an atrocious human rights record; Qatar, Suadi Arabia, Yemen, Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Iran all have terrible records of violation (see Amnesty International); honour killings of women who refuse to engage in pre arranged marriage in Pakistan (and England incidently). Stoning to death of women? What kind of freedom is this? I don't think Europe is the be all and end all of democracy and freedom but at least idealogically, people can feel as if they have freedom of expression. The UK Bill of Rights 1689 set out freedom of speech as a right which the US later followed with its Constitution, and finally the European Convention on Human Rights in 1950 following the horrors of wwII. I admire the US constitutional system, I have to say, in theory at least.

Thng about these faiths is we are not born into them we go through some sort of ritual usually when a baby so have no say in the matter. The paper work (if there is any) says I am C of E yet I do not go to Church to praise anyone but the sheer brilliance of building such a large building 600+ years ago.

now this is a church

[EYE] Valar wrote:A lot of misconceptions AND misinformation abroad.

QFT!!!

I also appreciated TLC's long statment.

Hooray for pointless threads!

[EYE] Valar wrote: heh i've had more than once people asking me on internet chats if i had a camel and if i had TV when they heard i was from Isreal.
A lot of misconceptions AND misinformation abroad.

Its like this right, wenever an american asks u something like this, respond in kind.

For example:
"Do you ride kangaroos in Austrlia?"

"No, do you ride fat people in America?"

Pernicious wrote:For example:
"Do you ride kangaroos in Austrlia?"

"No, do you ride fat people in America?"

LOL yes. Or if you're upper midwest, smalltown USA: "Do you ride in a stagecoach to work? or, do Indians live in Teepees?" It's pretty amazing... xD

yay stereotypes

aye beef theres no smoke without fire

According to Christianity, only Christians go to Heaven.

The probability of being a Christian varies by region.

Therefore, your probability of being saved is a function of where you are born, which is something that is beyond your control.

Therefore, the system is not just.

God created the system.

Therefore, God is not just.

Pernicious wrote:
"No, do you ride fat people in America?"

Confirmed, this is in fact not a myth. There are in fact certain places where rich people ride fat people to work in America.

ether wrote:According to Christianity, only Christians go to Heaven.

The probability of being a Christian varies by region.

Therefore, your probability of being saved is a function of where you are born, which is something that is beyond your control.

Therefore, the system is not just.

God created the system.

Therefore, God is not just.

well played.

Fucking sweet.

Also good one ether.

ether wrote:According to Christianity, only Christians go to Heaven.

Not true. According to Christianity, It is not for them to say who is to be "saved" even if they don't call themselves christians because they don't know others personal feelings toward God. According to Christianity,God holds each person accountable for the knowledge they have been given, at whatever level they are able to comprehend.

And as for the rest:

ether wrote:The probability of being a Christian varies by region.

Therefore, your probability of being saved is a function of where you are born, which is something that is beyond your control.

Therefore, the system is not just.

God created the system.

Therefore, God is not just.

"for “Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved.” 14 How then shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring glad tidings of good things!” -Romans 10:13-15

This is called Evangelizing

19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, -Romans 1:19-22

“Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.” Romans 2:14-15

I believe ether was referring to Christianity = the Religion not Christianity = the Good Book.
Most of what the book says isn't even regarded by the organized Religion.

[EYE] Valar wrote:I believe ether was referring to Christianity = the Religion not Christianity = the Good Book.
Most of what the book says isn't even regarded by the organized Religion.

what exactly do you mean? I feel stupid.

This.

Briggs wrote:

[EYE] Valar wrote:I believe ether was referring to Christianity = the Religion not Christianity = the Good Book.
Most of what the book says isn't even regarded by the organized Religion.

what exactly do you mean? I feel stupid.

i mean he was making arguments about how Religion claims that only Christians go to Heaven and you replied him with quotes from the New Testament.
i noted that the two are sadly two separate entities.

Oh,you mean Human's don't always live up to Christ and aren't always perfect?

WOW! Good Point!
I guess we should say the same for Islam, Judaism, Hinduism...
And dismiss all religion!?!?!

Doiunk~!

Yes. but it goes a lot deeper than this. read back on the thread i've posted a lot of information explaining what i mean.
If it were only that "some" people aren't "getting" what the book says then so be it. but that isn't the issue and i don't think this thread would've been started if that were the case.

I don't think you know all the people, or even large numbers of the people.
In fact, i don't think you know very many people, compared to the Millions - Billions out there.

And maybe not you, but many don't know what others do to benefit their fellow man.
Maybe because advertising it everywhere is sleazy.

"You're right. Large masses of people of K-12 educated only are easy to manipulate. It's a case of the one eyed man leading the blind, I shutter to think of how powerful the two eyed man is."

Now I take back what I said as there will in fact be a case where blind will lead the blind http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/07/19 ... ing-blind/

You are an idiot.
That is really all i have to say.

The Argumentalizer wrote:I don't think you know all the people, or even large numbers of the people.
In fact, i don't think you know very many people, compared to the Millions - Billions out there.

And maybe not you, but many don't know what others do to benefit their fellow man.
Maybe because advertising it everywhere is sleazy.

I'm not sure i follow. i can't rely on information unless i've verified it myself? Tibet doesn't exist unless i've been there? of course it does. I know YOU exist even though we never met in person bro.
As for those who benefit their fellow man - i'm one of those who naively believe that the world spins on the kindness of people. but this has nothing to do with this topic. it deals with the nature of the organized Christian religion.

Well, you claim that Christians are not following the Book.

How do you know?
And which ones?
How often?
What is the percentage of Christianity in All Christians?
Is it trending up or down?
How do you know this? Osmosis? Inference? Extrapolation?

See?
Obviously we are not talking about the existence of Tibet but the existence of your claimed knowledge.

I'm talking about Christianity as its supposed to be... not how its presented by Christians. New Testament included.

Briggs wrote:I'm talking about Christianity as its supposed to be... not how its presented by Christians. New Testament included.

It's all the catholics fault

The Argumentalizer wrote:Well, you claim that Christians are not following the Book.

How do you know?
And which ones?
How often?
What is the percentage of Christianity in All Christians?
Is it trending up or down?
How do you know this? Osmosis? Inference? Extrapolation?

See?
Obviously we are not talking about the existence of Tibet but the existence of your claimed knowledge.

When i get some time off here i'll look it up for you and flood the thread with yet more articles backing my claimed knowledge but suffice to say that going into micron level won't win an argument. Moreover I never claimed that "Christians are not following the Book" - that's generalizing and i don't do that. I have always will claim that ALL religions stemmed from a ONE TRUE Source that has been distorted, over-simplified, normalized, edited and rewritten in order to control the masses - be it Christianity, Judaism or Islam.
Good Peoples are everywhere, in all walks of life. fact someone is good peoples doesn't mean the religion they believe is Good in essence. IMHO ALL Religions are bad in the sense that they try to formalize God and Man. You cannot do that. I furthermore argue that ALL Religions are void since they are ALL laid on the foundations of historic figures WHO NEVER FORMALIZED GOD AND MAN AND PREACHED AGAINST SUCH STUPIDITY. I deem All Religions unnecessarily moderate between God and Man. I believe the children stories the fucktards who WROTE the books are just that - Children stories - they are as crooked and lame as they can possibly be = An old bearded man (male) in the SKIES made the universe but gets angry at someone who masturbates or is gay. An all seeing-all mighty dewd who can raise mountains and flood oceans but can't freaking make it down to earth so he's talking to winged people and they fly down to earth and talk only to SOME people who then relay the messages to everyone else - what a flawless system. A disturbed, bi-polar and masculinely challenged God who wants people to go to WAR and KILL other people. A God who MADE MAN IN HIS IMAGE but somehow, someway also made OTHER people who aren't in his image and wants those who ARE in his image to ELIMINATE the other ones. So um, not only did "GOD" miss but if i'm understanding this right (and i believe i do) this dude is capable of creating planets but can't kill a human being - he needs PEOPLE to do it for him. RIGHT!! what a load of crap lol.

So yeah links...link to this: I believe in the existence of Jesus as a historic figure, as a Prophet and i believe in the existence of Good Peoples. I do not believe in Religions. Not in the form they are now or have been since their beginning.
The sorry excuse many love arguing in favor of Religion that it "helps the common people find their way in life and educates them" is a fucking joke. Jesus had enough followings to eliminate the need for any intermediary or moderators between the crowd and him; it was very simple: he stood on some rock and spoke and people listened. OUCH, no need for Stupifiction of the message for the "common" people do digest. So this argument is in fact, whether or not Religion is TRUE to the Lord's words. well, I don't even need to argue here - it is a KNOWN fact it's not. Not one single guideline Jesus laid out is taken literally by our friend Rue-Paul. not one. Keeping in mind Jesus was a Jew who thousands of years into Judaism attempted to bring people (JEWS) BACK to the TRUTH the ancient Judaism STEMMED from we can safely say not only Christianity is a dead horse but that Judaism is Horseshit. i'm not even going into Islam.
You seem to me be doing your best ignoring recent findings and even logic itself. I've posted not one article on this thread but a few and still you ask for more proofs and links. Please, give the one i did post here a read so we can talk opinions.

I love how people know everything about europe, the states and such by reading it somewhere. Anyone with a brain should realise that you can't cover everything with books.

I also love how people are able to read historical people's minds. Knowing everything about their thoughts and why they did like they did etc. It's like watching national geographic.

Just live in a country and you'll see how little truth there is in books and other mediums.

Europe sucks vs America sucks go ahead and throw shit, nobody have a clue anyway. I'm pretty sure I don't have one either.

Nope you're right, some can be learned by books, the rest has to be lived...to steal a little bit from The Quiet American into.

Also the whole Europe vs America has gotten less hostile over the years, especially now that the unholy alliance of Venezuala, Iran, Russia and China are increasingly exporting/importing with eachother at insanely low cost all while China is buying up most of Africa, and now is venturing into taking over parts of Latin America. EU and the US will become more partners then anything over time because we simply cannot keep up anymore with this new global alliance.

Also about Sweden, good gamers, good people, one of the best economies (if not THE best in country to size ratio if I'm not mistaken) for a country its size and the best women, I don't have to read books to know that!

Valar" "I believe ether was referring to Christianity = the Religion not Christianity = the Good Book.
Most of what the book says isn't even regarded by the organized Religion."

This seems to be a statement of knowledge/fact.

"MOST of the what the books says isn't even regarded by the organized religion."

It's a problematic statement on many many levels.

Which Book? I assume the New Testament.
Which faction/Sect of Christianity?
Catholic Missionaries?
Baptists?
Methodists?
The National/International groups or the local!??!
The United Methodist organization has policies that are rejected by local Methodists.
Is the Pope following the book more closely than Catholic Liberals like Nancy Pelosi?
Are Jesuits liberal Protestants?
Aren't liberal churches really just religion LITE?
Whose interpretation of the New Testament? Yours?
Do we turn the cheek and love our enemies like Jesus says or do we battle Evil, like Jesus says?
Not regarding MOST of the book isn't really a credible statement.
It requires more knowledge of human beliefs and actions than one person is capable of knowing.

Looking in to the hearts and behaviors of millions of people is nothing like discerning whether Tibet exists.
The point that this is a matter of Solipsism is truly junk.

wow people are really into this thread, i'd like to know what muslims, hindus and other religions think though it would be interesting as were really only taking into account vs athiesm not other religions knowwharrimean?

I'd like to see a fucking well constructed sentence using the English language from some folks here.
Uknowharrimeen?

This is English motherfucker. Do you have the ability to read it?!

"This is English motherfucker"

You mean this is an English motherfucker?
Maybe "This is English, motherfucker."
Or Motherfucker, this is English.
UNooWhaImeeen

The Argumentalizer wrote:"This is English motherfucker"

You mean this is an English motherfucker?
Maybe "This is English, motherfucker."
>Or Motherfucker, this is English.
UNooWhaImeeen

Forgot the quotations there, buddy.

useewatimsayin'?

Va|iums wrote:Also about Sweden, good gamers, good people, one of the best economies (if not THE best in country to size ratio if I'm not mistaken) for a country its size and the best women, I don't have to read books to know that!

About the economy, I'm pretty sure we have the "high" taxes to thank for that. People with not much to work with can still afford to live even during an crisis. Alright we give away free economic support to those who don't have jobs, I'm sure this help people to get on their feet though. A hobo won't contribute shit he will just drag the country down. Al tough a person that's able to purchase things, that have a chance to get back on his feet and get a new job (then purchase even more stuff.) will contribute to the end of the depression.

The bitches, ofc we have nice bitches. The vikings made sure to only bring home the best looking on their pillaging trips.

Hey i have some viking in me so i guess u can thank my ancestors for contributing to that XD

Shoobie wrote:

Va|iums wrote:Also about Sweden, good gamers, good people, one of the best economies (if not THE best in country to size ratio if I'm not mistaken) for a country its size and the best women, I don't have to read books to know that!

About the economy, I'm pretty sure we have the "high" taxes to thank for that. People with not much to work with can still afford to live even during an crisis. Alright we give away free economic support to those who don't have jobs, I'm sure this help people to get on their feet though. A hobo won't contribute shit he will just drag the country down. Al tough a person that's able to purchase things, that have a chance to get back on his feet and get a new job (then purchase even more stuff.) will contribute to the end of the depression.

The bitches, ofc we have nice bitches. The vikings made sure to only bring home the best looking on their pillaging trips.

LOL. When I visit Sweden when you and ur bro are old enough to drink in the future make sure to guide me to the right cities

Also about the Swedish economy, it's more then the welfare output/input I'm talking about, I'm referring to the fact the pure amount of quality goods Sweden produces is highly profitable, and its economy in general is one of the best economies in the world. It helps U.S-Swedish business relations are some of the strongest in the world too.

Timely article from the LA Times.

Atheists, agnostics most knowledgeable about religion, survey says

Here is the Pew Forum's Summary:

http://pewforum.org/Other-Beliefs-and-P ... urvey.aspx

And here is a link to the survey itself. Keep in mind that the survey is written for the person conducting the survey, not the person taking it, so following it is not overly straight forward.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http ... hrome=true

Beat me to it, BuckyKatt: http://www.whitehorseinn.org/blog/2010/ ... -religion/

I personally wouldn't consider myself a Christian at the moment, but I do attend a church out of my own will. I've learned quite a bit about people as a whole, both in my fifteen or so years out of church and two years in it.

A true Christian, or someone at least educated about the Bible, knows that, really, no one is "good". “There is no one who does good, no not even one. There is no one who seeks God.” (As the article mentions, this can be seen from Psalm 14, Psalm 53, and Romans 3, you know, straight from the Bible itself). Yet, I can exactly recall a certain friend of mine who was so optimistic about people as a whole when her faith revolves around the fact that Man is of sin and doomed without salvation. Of course, this was six years ago, so her views may have changed. The point being, there are numerous "Christians" who do not understand the very bases of their faith. Some don't know what differentiates a Protestant from, say, a Roman Catholic. Some simply think of God as a vending machine, praying only for their own self interests and being quick to abandon the faith they have been growing up with since childhoood. "Christians."

I'm from Koreatown, Los Angeles. I come from a place where there is an ocean of Koreans claiming to be Christians, Catholics, Buddhists, etc. Yet, these same people would belong to petty gangs (cause it's the K-Town scene, yo) or think as if the world revolves around them. These people become con men and scammers when they grow up (I seriously do not trust older men of my own race when it comes to business; in an essence, I am a racist of my own race, though to be fair, I do not think any higher of any other race, so perhaps I am not as self-deprecating as I may convince myself to be). All in all, these people really aren't different from you and I. They cheat. They lie. They steal. They murder. Without the silver cross bling that you see hanging on their necks, amongst other jewelries, you wouldn't be able to tell that these people are to be recognized as "Christians." Don't be too surprised when you see such people continually use the Lord's name in vain, regularly visit FMLife, and fail to do anything remotely humbling or servitude-like.

I would not consider such people "Christians," and I implore you guys to do the same. This religion isn't about burning Korans or going on a witch hunt against video games and homosexuals (the latter of which I really don't understand; He views all sins equally, so if Christians are to prosecute homosexuals, they should prosecute themselves as well for hypocrisy, deceit, and desecrating their own religion, among other things). This religion isn't about God making life the best just for you (as can be implied by those fraud "faith healing" and "Prosperity gospels"). This religion is simply about acknowledging that people are nothing but vessels of sin, of waste, of futility, and to believe that Christ saves. It doesn't take any faith or irrational thought to acknowledge the former in my opinion; this world really is a hell-hole. It's not something I would want to be too comfortable in, personally.

Just felt like ranting a bit irrelevantly.

Yours truly,
a seventeen year old who still has much to learn about this world...

Sweden makes the best music in the world

Enlighten me tlc! Samples?

"Sweden makes the best music in the world."

LMAO

Maybe the best meatballs. Or is that Italy!??

tlc wrote:Sweden makes the best music in the world

ace of base ftw!

The Argumentalizer wrote:I'd like to see a fucking well constructed sentence using the English language from some folks here.
Uknowharrimeen?

Hmmm, there's something wrong with this sentence isn't there, Mr. Agumentaliser? WHAT?

Ahh, don't take it too seriously.