Zeitgeist.

Pernicious wrote:I remember back wen 911 happened, months after i remember watching some of the clean up and seeing the molten metal, they referred to it as "hot slag", a shiver went up my spine and at that moment and i knew then something was up. Though me being Australian i shrugged it off and didnt think about it for years, i just didnt give a fuck, im not American. Then years later watching some of these conspiracy theory movies they do bring up some very good questions, for me the main one of course is the molten metal(how?), i know it was there, theres no bullshit about it. THEN i hear my uncle, who is an Engineer and a literal genius(i shit u not) is one of these conspiracy theorists. This leaves me with an open mind.

However whenever i have asked such questions of Americans, namely hl2dm players(an obvious choice), i was greeted each time with an aggressive and emotional response, even told to shut up. Its quite the touchy subject for Americans. Patriotism, its evil, even Einstein said so. Just sayin that its kinda pathetic, not that everything t\conspiracy theorists say is true. though i can imagine that would make quite the thread.

Pernicious wrote:The molten metal i saw on tv in the clean up of 911, 3 months after it happened, that was still burning at over 2000 degrees. It was no secret.
The only attempt at explaining that away that i know of from the government was something about steamjets. This does not explain why molten metal was spewing out of the buildings b4 they collapsed nor does it explain how there is molten metal in the first place wen the fuels maximum burn temp is around 800 degrees. And these things i witnessed live....so ....no bullshit.

Thats the only question i ask, i am rusty on the details though.
Answer me that question without calling me retarded or getting all emo and i'll be greatfull, i could just troll(and it seems i got nino without even trying) but ive seen too much of that latly.

Also tell me how my fucking uncle predicted America would be going to war in Iraq years b4 they did.

The Argumentalizer wrote:Gubbmint can't keep any secrets and a conspiracy would have to involve too many people to keep secrets.
It's a lot of strung together ignorance parading as "TRUTH" which is really extreme nihilism and paranoia.

The Argumentalizer wrote:
Bush did not know of a specific attack and let it happen.

provost wrote:George Carlin has the answer, give him a call.

The Argumentalizer wrote: All this conspiracy crap is nonsense.
The gubbmint had nothing to do with 911 and buildings.

The fucking terrorists flew the planes into the buildings. The evidence is overwhelming.
Every single conspiracy has been debunked as nonsense.

CellarDweller wrote:
the fact that you havent spent two minutes on the internet trying to answer your questions tells me you dont have an open mind at all. you'd rather spend two minutes on an american gaming forum pretending you're not trolling.

i'll use a little common sense and some internet info. a commercial airliner traveling at 540 mph crashed into wtc2 between the 80th and 83rd floor. fifty minutes later, a sporadic flow of a glowing liquid is observed flowing out the 80th floor for 7 minutes minutes before the wtc2 collapse. rather than believing 200 technical experts, thousands of interviews with eyewitnesses on the scene, and reviews of over 14,000 video segments and photographs, concluding the glowing liquid was most likely melted metal alloys from the plane itself... you believe what exactly? based upon what you viewed on tv for a few minutes? what exactly is it that your genius engineering uncle concluded from watching tv coverage for a few minutes while being thousands of miles away from the scene?

molten metal in the debris weeks later? think of the sheer volume of debris contained in those buildings. think of the types of materials in those buildings. now imagine the pressure created with thousand of tons of debris. now do a little research into how iron burns. you know, oxidation... the chemical process. and the reactive natures of iron, gypsum, pressure, water, air, and heat... and so many other materials and chemical reactions combined. what do you come up with? what exactly is your theory?

Ko-Tao wrote:Ahem, I'll just leave this here

CellarDweller wrote:

Pernicious wrote:The molten metal i saw on tv in the clean up of 911, 3 months after it happened, that was still burning at over 2000 degrees. It was no secret.
The only attempt at explaining that away that i know of from the government was something about steamjets. This does not explain why molten metal was spewing out of the buildings b4 they collapsed nor does it explain how there is molten metal in the first place wen the fuels maximum burn temp is around 800 degrees. And these things i witnessed live....so ....no bullshit.

Thats the only question i ask, i am rusty on the details though.
Answer me that question without calling me retarded or getting all emo and i'll be greatfull, i could just troll(and it seems i got nino without even trying) but ive seen too much of that latly.

Also tell me how my fucking uncle predicted America would be going to war in Iraq years b4 they did.

the fact that you havent spent two minutes on the internet trying to answer your questions tells me you dont have an open mind at all. you'd rather spend two minutes on an american gaming forum pretending you're not trolling.

i'll use a little common sense and some internet info. a commercial airliner traveling at 540 mph crashed into wtc2 between the 80th and 83rd floor. fifty minutes later, a sporadic flow of a glowing liquid is observed flowing out the 80th floor for 7 minutes minutes before the wtc2 collapse. rather than believing 200 technical experts, thousands of interviews with eyewitnesses on the scene, and reviews of over 14,000 video segments and photographs, concluding the glowing liquid was most likely melted metal alloys from the plane itself... you believe what exactly? based upon what you viewed on tv for a few minutes? what exactly is it that your genius engineering uncle concluded from watching tv coverage for a few minutes while being thousands of miles away from the scene?

molten metal in the debris weeks later? think of the sheer volume of debris contained in those buildings. think of the types of materials in those buildings. now imagine the pressure created with thousand of tons of debris. now do a little research into how iron burns. you know, oxidation... the chemical process. and the reactive natures of iron, gypsum, pressure, water, air, and heat... and so many other materials and chemical reactions combined. what do you come up with? what exactly is your theory?

Creature wrote:i didnt intend on this being about 9/11 considering the valueable points towards the conspiracy and the common sense that the planes just knocked it all down. but what i flipped the hell out about was the 1st 30 mins of the documentary. society has so many masks in front of what really fucking goes on its mindblowing how many people are blind to what we live in front of everyday. it shows that inflation, debt, and interest are the key elements for monetary system.. monetary system? try economical slavery.

Pernicious wrote:I was most interested in the part at the beginning about religion, and the stars tbh, allways like me some christian bashing.

Ko-Tao wrote:Ahem, I'll just leave this here

Ko-Tao wrote:Ahem, I'll just leave this here

Ko-Tao wrote:Ahem, I'll just leave this here

Paradox wrote:Anyone that seriously believes that the WTC came down because of anyhting other than planes hitting them really needs to stop drinking the conspiracy Koolade. TWO FUCKING PLANES HIT THE BUILDINGS! There are hundreds if not thousands of pictures and videos of it. 100s of 1000s of people if not millions saw it live on TV and in person. It would have taken literally months to sneak in enough explosives to take down those buildings. There is no way it would have gone unnoticed. Jet Planes are made of predominantly aluminum, the building was built with steel. Alumiunum melts at 660 deg C/1220 deg F while steel melts at 1370 deg C/ 2500 deg F. Molten metal coming out of the buildings before they collapsed was from the planes. There was relatively little metal left from those planes. The temperatures were high enough to weaken the steel to the point where it got soft and could no longer support the buildings. The condition of the steel after the fact showed exactly what happened. The rest is just fucking bullshit.

Mr. Nervous wrote:

Creature wrote:i didnt intend on this being about 9/11 considering the valueable points towards the conspiracy and the common sense that the planes just knocked it all down. but what i flipped the hell out about was the 1st 30 mins of the documentary. society has so many masks in front of what really fucking goes on its mindblowing how many people are blind to what we live in front of everyday. it shows that inflation, debt, and interest are the key elements for monetary system.. monetary system? try economical slavery.

lol, poverty and the extreme gap between rich and poor are inevitable side effects of capitalism, a society based on profit and having more money than the other guy. injecting any amount of money into the economy will not fix that. it's really not that mindblowing, when everyone wants the most money, the poor are going to be exploited by the rich.

Creature wrote:

Mr. Nervous wrote:

Creature wrote:i didnt intend on this being about 9/11 considering the valueable points towards the conspiracy and the common sense that the planes just knocked it all down. but what i flipped the hell out about was the 1st 30 mins of the documentary. society has so many masks in front of what really fucking goes on its mindblowing how many people are blind to what we live in front of everyday. it shows that inflation, debt, and interest are the key elements for monetary system.. monetary system? try economical slavery.

lol, poverty and the extreme gap between rich and poor are inevitable side effects of capitalism, a society based on profit and having more money than the other guy. injecting any amount of money into the economy will not fix that. it's really not that mindblowing, when everyone wants the most money, the poor are going to be exploited by the rich.

that is inevitable. however, without currency at all we'd all be so much better off. and you make think without money what motivation do we have to work to technologically advance, but thats exactly it, money fucks up your value systems, if our value systems werent fucked up the way they are we wouldnt be so fucking greedy. And with things like inflation, debt, and interest, were in a never ending cycle of debt. without debt there'd be not one dollar in circulation,which means theres NO SUCH THING AS ECONOMICAL GROWTH. So people that think we need to start over.. our system will have to collapse for us to start over.

Creature wrote:

Mr. Nervous wrote:

Creature wrote:i didnt intend on this being about 9/11 considering the valueable points towards the conspiracy and the common sense that the planes just knocked it all down. but what i flipped the hell out about was the 1st 30 mins of the documentary. society has so many masks in front of what really fucking goes on its mindblowing how many people are blind to what we live in front of everyday. it shows that inflation, debt, and interest are the key elements for monetary system.. monetary system? try economical slavery.

lol, poverty and the extreme gap between rich and poor are inevitable side effects of capitalism, a society based on profit and having more money than the other guy. injecting any amount of money into the economy will not fix that. it's really not that mindblowing, when everyone wants the most money, the poor are going to be exploited by the rich.

that is inevitable. however, without currency at all we'd all be so much better off. and you make think without money what motivation do we have to work to technologically advance, but thats exactly it, money fucks up your value systems, if our value systems werent fucked up the way they are we wouldnt be so fucking greedy. And with things like inflation, debt, and interest, were in a never ending cycle of debt. without debt there'd be not one dollar in circulation,which means theres NO SUCH THING AS ECONOMICAL GROWTH. So people that think we need to start over.. our system will have to collapse for us to start over.

The Argumentalizer wrote:You are an idiot. And a nihilist. Discussing anything with you is a worthless endeavor.

What main point? That some melted metal isn't explained properly to you?!?
Just because the answer is not GIVEN to your lazy ass, you surmise a conspiracy!?!
That is just QUEER.

tlc wrote:9/11 "truthers" honestly make me sick to my stomach.

Pernicious wrote:Derp, u have been perned.
Lets make some things clear, my uncle IS an Engineer and a literal genius, however i have no idea wat his thoughts on the towers are XD
I am not a conspiracy theorist, atleast not about the towers exploding.
My uncle DID predict about wen and where US would go to war for oil next.
This thread was boring and i still could not get anyone to explain in detail the steamjet theory. If ur going to argue with a troll Para u should atleast adress the main point at hand gosh.

Pernicious wrote:Then years later watching some of these conspiracy theory movies they do bring up some very good questions, for me the main one of course is the molten metal(how?), i know it was there, theres no bullshit about it.THEN i hear my uncle, who is an Engineer and a literal genius(i shit u not) is one of these conspiracy theorists

Paradox wrote:I live in NY and Ill tell you that people were very upset and afraid when it happened. One woman I worked with at the time was on the verge of panic. Everyone felt helpless.

Paradox wrote: I live in NY and Ill tell you that people were very upset and afraid when it happened. One woman I worked with at the time was on the verge of panic. Everyone felt helpless. Most people where I live knows someone that died in that event. My neighbor is a NYC fireman and he had a very rough time afterwards because many of his friends are now dead. It is not something that should be trivialized.

11. Why do some photographs show a yellow stream of molten metal pouring down the side of WTC2 that NIST claims was aluminum from the crashed plane although aluminum burns with a white glow?

NIST reported (NCSTAR 1-5A) that just before 9:52 a.m., a bright spot appeared at the top of a window on the 80th floor of WTC 2, four windows removed from the east edge on the north face, followed by the flow of a glowing liquid. This flow lasted approximately four seconds before subsiding. Many such liquid flows were observed from near this location in the seven minutes leading up to the collapse of this tower. There is no evidence of similar molten liquid pouring out from another location in WTC 2 or from anywhere within WTC 1.

Photographs, and NIST simulations of the aircraft impact, show large piles of debris in the 80th and 81st floors of WTC 2 near the site where the glowing liquid eventually appeared. Much of this debris came from the aircraft itself and from the office furnishings that the aircraft pushed forward as it tunneled to this far end of the building. Large fires developed on these piles shortly after the aircraft impact and continued to burn in the area until the tower collapsed.

NIST concluded that the source of the molten material was aluminum alloys from the aircraft, since these are known to melt between 475 degrees Celsius and 640 degrees Celsius (depending on the particular alloy), well below the expected temperatures (about 1,000 degrees Celsius) in the vicinity of the fires. Aluminum is not expected to ignite at normal fire temperatures and there is no visual indication that the material flowing from the tower was burning.

Pure liquid aluminum would be expected to appear silvery. However, the molten metal was very likely mixed with large amounts of hot, partially burned, solid organic materials (e.g., furniture, carpets, partitions and computers) which can display an orange glow, much like logs burning in a fireplace. The apparent color also would have been affected by slag formation on the surface.

13. Why did the NIST investigation not consider reports of molten steel in the wreckage from the WTC towers?

NIST investigators and experts from the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) and the Structural Engineers Association of New York (SEONY)—who inspected the WTC steel at the WTC site and the salvage yards—found no evidence that would support the melting of steel in a jet-fuel ignited fire in the towers prior to collapse. The condition of the steel in the wreckage of the WTC towers (i.e., whether it was in a molten state or not) was irrelevant to the investigation of the collapse since it does not provide any conclusive information on the condition of the steel when the WTC towers were standing.

NIST considered the damage to the steel structure and its fireproofing caused by the aircraft impact and the subsequent fires when the buildings were still standing since that damage was responsible for initiating the collapse of the WTC towers.

Under certain circumstances it is conceivable for some of the steel in the wreckage to have melted after the buildings collapsed. Any molten steel in the wreckage was more likely due to the high temperature resulting from long exposure to combustion within the pile than to short exposure to fires or explosions while the buildings were standing.

the_big_cheese wrote:YAWN

I don't mind considering conspiracies (one of my favorites is water fluoridation). But I can't believe you're saying that there is no answer to the molten metal thing.
MAYBE you could have said that back in 2002, but not now... Comon, you haven't even looked. google 'metal flowing out of wtc' and click on the first link.

11. Why do some photographs show a yellow stream of molten metal pouring down the side of WTC2 that NIST claims was aluminum from the crashed plane although aluminum burns with a white glow?

NIST reported (NCSTAR 1-5A) that just before 9:52 a.m., a bright spot appeared at the top of a window on the 80th floor of WTC 2, four windows removed from the east edge on the north face, followed by the flow of a glowing liquid. This flow lasted approximately four seconds before subsiding. Many such liquid flows were observed from near this location in the seven minutes leading up to the collapse of this tower. There is no evidence of similar molten liquid pouring out from another location in WTC 2 or from anywhere within WTC 1.

Photographs, and NIST simulations of the aircraft impact, show large piles of debris in the 80th and 81st floors of WTC 2 near the site where the glowing liquid eventually appeared. Much of this debris came from the aircraft itself and from the office furnishings that the aircraft pushed forward as it tunneled to this far end of the building. Large fires developed on these piles shortly after the aircraft impact and continued to burn in the area until the tower collapsed.

NIST concluded that the source of the molten material was aluminum alloys from the aircraft, since these are known to melt between 475 degrees Celsius and 640 degrees Celsius (depending on the particular alloy), well below the expected temperatures (about 1,000 degrees Celsius) in the vicinity of the fires. Aluminum is not expected to ignite at normal fire temperatures and there is no visual indication that the material flowing from the tower was burning.

Pure liquid aluminum would be expected to appear silvery. However, the molten metal was very likely mixed with large amounts of hot, partially burned, solid organic materials (e.g., furniture, carpets, partitions and computers) which can display an orange glow, much like logs burning in a fireplace. The apparent color also would have been affected by slag formation on the surface.

13. Why did the NIST investigation not consider reports of molten steel in the wreckage from the WTC towers?

NIST investigators and experts from the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) and the Structural Engineers Association of New York (SEONY)—who inspected the WTC steel at the WTC site and the salvage yards—found no evidence that would support the melting of steel in a jet-fuel ignited fire in the towers prior to collapse. The condition of the steel in the wreckage of the WTC towers (i.e., whether it was in a molten state or not) was irrelevant to the investigation of the collapse since it does not provide any conclusive information on the condition of the steel when the WTC towers were standing.

NIST considered the damage to the steel structure and its fireproofing caused by the aircraft impact and the subsequent fires when the buildings were still standing since that damage was responsible for initiating the collapse of the WTC towers.

Under certain circumstances it is conceivable for some of the steel in the wreckage to have melted after the buildings collapsed. Any molten steel in the wreckage was more likely due to the high temperature resulting from long exposure to combustion within the pile than to short exposure to fires or explosions while the buildings were standing.

Folks should be reasonable and intelligent and skeptical.
Frankly, i don't see any of this on the Left.

the_big_cheese wrote:I'm having a hard time finding any real footage of this beyond a couple (the same two keep popping up) of bad photos that aren't even timestamped.
Help me out? I'm specifically looking for clips or pictures of molten steel during the cleanup.

[EYE] Valar wrote:The biggest fear in children is that their parents don't love them and won't, at some point, be there to protect them.
This fear translates itself into every aspect of our lives as "grownups".
It is inconceivably frightening thinking that your own government isn't there to protect you or worse, is manipulating and exploiting you. really really scary shit.

The Argumentalizer wrote:"It is inconceivably frightening thinking that your own government isn't there to protect you or worse, is manipulating and exploiting you. really really scary shit."

-Tell me who believes this in the first place?!?! It's like saying i expect the Police to protect me from every criminal. It's nonsense. No, it is not "inconceivably frightening".
It's really scary shit, in movies. In Hollywood. The real history is more like bungled real time emergencies and contingencies, by imperfect humans, in wildly imperfect bureaucracies.

The Argumentalizer wrote:"The fact that there are things happening in your country you have no knowledge of is a fact."

There are probably things happening on Mars i am not privy to. So what. This is an entirely meaningless statement.

The Argumentalizer wrote:"The fact the government (in any country) is not the only and definitely not the most powerful entity in the country is a fact."

Ohh really. Also nonsense. Power equals force. The Gubbmint has massive force in its pocket. I don't get this at all. It also seems devoid of meaning. I would imagine the IDF is the most powerful factor in Israel and is controlled by the Gubbmint, no!?!?

The Argumentalizer wrote:"The fact that Bin Laden was in Afghanistan and not in Iraq is a fact."

Nobody in the American administration EVER said he was in Iraq.
In fact, in real time, it was said he escaped through Tora Bora, to Pakistan, so !?!?!?
What is this nonsense? Yeah, it is a fact...meaning what exactly!?

The Argumentalizer wrote:"The fact that the US government waged war on Iraq as a direct result of 9.11 is a fact."
Umm, the US waged war on Iraq in 1992, having nothing to do with 911. That war never ended. No connection to 911 was EVER MADE by Bush. This is more left wing garbage. Completely debunked. a THREAT case was made for going into Iraq. So, not a fact.

"The fact this makes no sense is a fact."

Iraq now looks like it makes perfect sense, being a fledgling Pluralistic Constitutional Democracy NOT ruled by an evil murderous Sunni Madman. Hmmm... Ah, that was the whole point. Bush pulled the trigger to shake up the whole Middle East. He made this case. Sorry you never listened.

The Argumentalizer wrote:"The fact that the comity that looked into the 9.11 incident was not in independent one is a fact."

Not independent? Who says? Are you saying there is a coverup? WHat? How would it have been more independent. This is a direct personal attack on the integrity of the Co-Chairs of the committee. They are man held in high esteem.
I reject your nonsense again. Was it perfect?!? No, geee who knew!

The Argumentalizer wrote:"The fact that each and every scientist from INSIDE the system who came out claiming the problematic facts regarding 9.11 were either fired, reputation destroyed or disappeared is a fact."

This is complete bullshit. There are some professor's who were fired for being nut cases. Destroyed!?!? Disappeared!??!
Let's see some hard evidence of any of this. Do you have any direct knowledge or proof? I doubt you do. Just a handful of internet nonsense.

The Argumentalizer wrote:"The fact that taking an extreme side in any matter is depriving one of the whole truth is a fact. Both left wing and right wing can never see the whole story. It is simply a paradox for an extremist to see Truth:

Who is taking an extreme side? Me?!? Because molten "metal" doesn't equate to the Gubbmint planting thermite charges trying to murder it's own citizens. I mean, LISTEN TO YOURSELVES. It's ridiculous nonsense. This isn't a movie.

The Argumentalizer wrote:"The US Government is about Freedom and equal rights about as much as Iran is about good times and great Rock concerts. Is the American nation good and the Iranian nation bad? of course not; there are asses and good peoples on both but you both got corrupted governments."

The US Government is made up of US citizens whose leadership is chosen by voter/citizens. That is pretty free to me.
Funny how you talk about the US Government and then compare the Iranian NATION. That's a smooth trick, but i caught it.
Try comparing the Theocratic MULLAH gubbmint with our elected representative gubbmint next time.
And compare the American PEOPLE to the Iranian people next time. I don't know many people that believe the entire Iranian PEOPLE are evil or bad. Nonsense again.

The Argumentalizer wrote:"The fact is; Truth is not always simple - many times Truth is revealed long after certain systems collapse."

This is shallow meaningless psycho-babble. The truth is not always simple!!! WOW! Amazing. I am flabbergasted.
I wish i knew what truths you are talking about.
It sounds like most theorists: VAGUE SHALLOW nothing. No facts. Innuendo, conjecture, paranoia...

The Argumentalizer wrote:In life, the simplest explanation is usually the answer.

[EYE] Valar wrote:

The Argumentalizer wrote:"It is inconceivably frightening thinking that your own government isn't there to protect you or worse, is manipulating and exploiting you. really really scary shit."

-Tell me who believes this in the first place?!?! It's like saying i expect the Police to protect me from every criminal. It's nonsense. No, it is not "inconceivably frightening".
It's really scary shit, in movies. In Hollywood. The real history is more like bungled real time emergencies and contingencies, by imperfect humans, in wildly imperfect bureaucracies.

"Your avoiding the direct reference to the facts - the US government lead by the Bush family benefited from these wars. period. get your facts right. As a citizen, knowing my own government is making money on people's lives is frightening. I assume the cries haven't reached your ivory tower yet. It's been almost ten years now. Wake up anytime soon?

-What facts? The Government LEAD by the BUSH FAMILY, benefited from these wars!?!?! What benefit, except to end Saddam Hussein and his evil regime!? Thousands of dead soldiers and civilians are a benefit!? Billions spent is a benefit to the government!?!? What the hell are you talking about? Making money!? The gubbmint doesn't make any money. They appropriate (take) it and spend it. Of course, you offer no solution to Hussein, no change for the better in the ME, no answers, just a lot of nonsense about making money from war. It's bizarre. The US SACRIFICED MUCH to remove that regime and give Iraq a fair shake. Making money!?! It's ludicrous and ignorant. What you mean benefited? Halliburton! Please. Folks lost money supporting the Iraq War. NEXT"

The Argumentalizer wrote:"The fact that there are things happening in your country you have no knowledge of is a fact."

There are probably things happening on Mars i am not privy to. So what. This is an entirely meaningless statement.

"No it is not. It is directly referring to the fact the WTC was intentionally destroyed by or with the knowledge of your government."

LMAO. Round and Round we go, with utter nonsense. No facts, no proof, no evidence. Just nonsense. Knowledge of the Gubbmint. Aha, yeah right. Ridiculous. Present some hard core reputable sources for this or please stop perpetuating this crap.

The Argumentalizer wrote:"The fact the government (in any country) is not the only and definitely not the most powerful entity in the country is a fact."

Ohh really. Also nonsense. Power equals force. The Gubbmint has massive force in its pocket. I don't get this at all. It also seems devoid of meaning. I would imagine the IDF is the most powerful factor in Israel and is controlled by the Gubbmint, no!?!?

"Utter nonsense, the IDF is far from being the most powerful factor in Israel and if you think the only entity controlling it is the government you're living in La La Land. Same goes for your country. See no evil Hear no evil syndrome again. Wake up, vet."

You keep going round and round in loony circles, making claims i don't know something or am ignorant, without presenting anything at all. It's just nonsense. What are you even talking about!? Israel and the US don't have Civilian controlled militarys?
They are not the most powerful!?!?! Well who is, the Bilderburg Group? The Shadow Masonic/Lions Club/Skull and Crossbones Group!? Whatever. Again, you make a lot of claims without support.

The Argumentalizer wrote:"The fact that Bin Laden was in Afghanistan and not in Iraq is a fact."

Nobody in the American administration EVER said he was in Iraq.
In fact, in real time, it was said he escaped through Tora Bora, to Pakistan, so !?!?!?
What is this nonsense? Yeah, it is a fact...meaning what exactly!?

"Those 3 paragraphs were connected from a reason. Context Sir. Let me spell that to you so you can understand: If once 911 happened the Government openly blamed Bin Laden for it why the hell did they attack Iraq? Oh, sorry. Bin Laden gots no Oil. i forget. My bad."

What the HELL are you talking about!? They are two different conflicts, brought about at different times and with different reasons and goals. Only nonsense like this conflates the two, without honor to the facts. I repeat: NOBODY in the American Administration conflated Afghanistan and 911 with Iraq. NO ONE! The lefty interwebs did all this. The reasons for Iraq were outlined. In fact, some strategies were NOT highlighted, as in changing Iraq into a modern model for the ME, in a country most likely to succeed, directly center to so much dysfunction. No, Bush did not sell this. It's too complicated for most people.

The Argumentalizer wrote:"The fact that the US government waged war on Iraq as a direct result of 9.11 is a fact."
Umm, the US waged war on Iraq in 1992, having nothing to do with 911. That war never ended. No connection to 911 was EVER MADE by Bush. This is more left wing garbage. Completely debunked. a THREAT case was made for going into Iraq. So, not a fact.

"The fact this makes no sense is a fact."

Iraq now looks like it makes perfect sense, being a fledgling Pluralistic Constitutional Democracy NOT ruled by an evil murderous Sunni Madman. Hmmm... Ah, that was the whole point. Bush pulled the trigger to shake up the whole Middle East. He made this case. Sorry you never listened.

"Very true. the ME is all fun and sunshine now that Sadam Husain has been dethroned. Oh i listened alright; the Iraq war was waged to give "something" to the public saying "we're in war with terrorism" so the general public won't see Bush they he really was - a clueless drunk while what they really were after was Oil and weapon deals - which they got."

Again, you just make stuff up that isn't true. War was waged for the reasons given and a grand strategy involved, not all of which was sold. We ARE war with terrorists. HELLOOOOO. Do you remember that Lebanon dustup against Hizbollah!??! Israel is also at war with terrorism. Go look at your Airports! Clueless Drunk yadda yadda, really old and stupid stuff. Out for oil!?!? LMAO. Where is it? We didn't take an OUNCE of oil from Iraqis. More ignorant circa 2004 nonsense.

The Argumentalizer wrote:"The fact that the comity that looked into the 9.11 incident was not in independent one is a fact."

Not independent? Who says? Are you saying there is a coverup? WHat? How would it have been more independent. This is a direct personal attack on the integrity of the Co-Chairs of the committee. They are man held in high esteem.
I reject your nonsense again. Was it perfect?!? No, geee who knew!

"Do tell who appointed the 9-11 Commission, FEMA and NIST? Where did the money for these boards come from?"

More innuendo without facts. Extreme cynicism is what it's called. It's all corrupt. Money was involved... blah blah..
-"The National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States, also known as the 9/11 Commission, was set up on November 27, 2002 "to prepare a full and complete account of the circumstances surrounding the September 11, 2001 attacks", including preparedness for and the immediate response to the attacks.
The commission was also mandated to provide recommendations designed to guard against future attacks.
Chaired by former New Jersey Governor Thomas Kean, the commission consisted of five Democrats and five Republicans. The commission was created by Congressional legislation, with the bill signed into law by President George W. Bush...
The Commission was picked by the elected gubbmint, not FEMA or NIST.

The Argumentalizer wrote:"The fact that each and every scientist from INSIDE the system who came out claiming the problematic facts regarding 9.11 were either fired, reputation destroyed or disappeared is a fact."

This is complete bullshit. There are some professor's who were fired for being nut cases. Destroyed!?!? Disappeared!??!
Let's see some hard evidence of any of this. Do you have any direct knowledge or proof? I doubt you do. Just a handful of internet nonsense.

I've shown evidence and there's a lot more than these two vids. you just didn't watch the vids, as always. It is in fact up to you to come up with proof since you're stating otherwise. And BTW, you keep throwing the "Internet" as synonym for "Irrelevant" when everyone you included knows this is bullshit; the Internet is a source of information. some is true, some is half true, some isn't. Takes a bit more than that to debunk arguments man, so let's bring the level of this conversation back up.

I don't have time for crap pot internet garbage that claims outlandish nonsense that is factually false. Folks have not been killed or disappeared. Lots of INSIDERS were not fired. Two vids. Could have been made by anyone for whatever reason. Are they reputable sources or more MOONBATS in the belfry? I think i know the answer to that.

The Argumentalizer wrote:"The fact that taking an extreme side in any matter is depriving one of the whole truth is a fact. Both left wing and right wing can never see the whole story. It is simply a paradox for an extremist to see Truth:

Who is taking an extreme side? Me?!? Because molten "metal" doesn't equate to the Gubbmint planting thermite charges trying to murder it's own citizens. I mean, LISTEN TO YOURSELVES. It's ridiculous nonsense. This isn't a movie.

"Do i really need to come up with proofs of your being an extremist? "

I am not an extremist. I am not a McVeigh or a militia type. I am not a member of any Tea Party. I am not a Larouchite or a clansman. I am a classic liberal limited gubbmint libertarian with a brain who gauges sources as legitimate or not. When folks who are obviously off their nut are the source, i'm out.
After years of lies and garbage from folks all over, there is no trail of reputable media/journalism finding one shred of truth to any of this garbage. Why? Journalists would kill for the rainmaker dirt/scandal that wins them fame. Why? Its garbage. There is nothing behind the curtain, but more curtains, leading nowhere.
But you, you will see that this is proof of MORE theories!

Quote:
Folks should be reasonable and intelligent and skeptical.
Frankly, i don't see any of this on the Left.
- point made.

The Argumentalizer wrote:"The US Government is about Freedom and equal rights about as much as Iran is about good times and great Rock concerts. Is the American nation good and the Iranian nation bad? of course not; there are asses and good peoples on both but you both got corrupted governments."

The US Government is made up of US citizens whose leadership is chosen by voter/citizens. That is pretty free to me.
Funny how you talk about the US Government and then compare the Iranian NATION. That's a smooth trick, but i caught it.
Try comparing the Theocratic MULLAH gubbmint with our elected representative gubbmint next time.
And compare the American PEOPLE to the Iranian people next time. I don't know many people that believe the entire Iranian PEOPLE are evil or bad. Nonsense again.

Read it again - it is referring to governments first and then to nations. Seems like you read fast just to find points for arguments. read it again. slowly.

The Argumentalizer wrote:"The fact is; Truth is not always simple - many times Truth is revealed long after certain systems collapse."

This is shallow meaningless psycho-babble. The truth is not always simple!!! WOW! Amazing. I am flabbergasted.
I wish i knew what truths you are talking about.
It sounds like most theorists: VAGUE SHALLOW nothing. No facts. Innuendo, conjecture, paranoia...

lol. I was referring to an earlier post you yourself made in this thread actually

The Argumentalizer wrote:In life, the simplest explanation is usually the answer.

But please, don't let me interrupt you from calling me names. You actually seem to enjoy it and that's a good thing

the_big_cheese wrote:Here's my problem. Eyewitness accounts after traumatic events like 9/11 are extremely shaky ground, especially when giving accounts years afterward. See flashbulb memory
If there were more convincing pictures of the molten steel, conspiracy theorists would be all over them and make sure that they're easily accessible to people.

It appears that people have done the math and there's no way the site could have gotten that hot without thermite or something similar. That leave basically two options.
1.Thermite or some other demolition material was used, this explains the molten steel
2.There was no molten steel. The very few pictures that were taken are probably other melted materials. How would someone at the site know how hot it was burning anyways?

Government organizations have basically taken #2, that's why there's not really much they can say to explain it.
It's similar to how the government doesn't acknowledge alien UFOs or Bigfoot.

CellarDweller wrote:there is a burning mountain in the land of oz. burning 1700 degrees celsius. burning underground. burning without oxygen. been burning for 6000 years.

clearly pern is a hatchling of the lizard people.

Pernicious wrote:Well considering how long the cleanup took, u can bet that the ppl involved were over the trauma of it well b4 they finished.

CellarDweller wrote:The first "molten" iron in the WTC piles was reportedly discovered WEEKS AFTER the collapse of the WTC towers

CellarDweller wrote:of course, my post here is useless. after all, u r a lying, lazy, ignorant troll.

Pernicious wrote:

the_big_cheese wrote:Here's my problem. Eyewitness accounts after traumatic events like 9/11 are extremely shaky ground, especially when giving accounts years afterward. See flashbulb memory
If there were more convincing pictures of the molten steel, conspiracy theorists would be all over them and make sure that they're easily accessible to people.

It appears that people have done the math and there's no way the site could have gotten that hot without thermite or something similar. That leave basically two options.
1.Thermite or some other demolition material was used, this explains the molten steel
2.There was no molten steel. The very few pictures that were taken are probably other melted materials. How would someone at the site know how hot it was burning anyways?

Government organizations have basically taken #2, that's why there's not really much they can say to explain it.
It's similar to how the government doesn't acknowledge alien UFOs or Bigfoot.

Well considering how long the cleanup took, u can bet that the ppl involved were over the trauma of it well b4 they finished. Also if u watched alot of the cleanup u can tell just by all the steam coming out from where they are digging that there are pockets of it all over, as the guy said "its been like this since day 1". Wasnt exactly trauma stricken.
Most of the footage i saw in the cleanup i dont think i'll ever see again, i remember seeing footage of excavators lifting metal up and molten metal would pour off the end of it, the only reason it was on the news i think was because of the reporters own curiousity /shrugs. And i think it served as filler as it wasnt a main focus point. I did see though several different reports of molten metal.

Pernicious wrote:Nah i allready felt that i had achieved something wen argumentaliser rage quti the thread, i have a thing for him.
Aside from Dwellers google, and a quick video search i didnt do one bit of research into any of this, as i have no interest in it.

911? Meh.
Aliens? Now thats some srs bizness.