dm_octagon \ potential 4v4 map?

so here's the argument..
does dm_octagon compare too much to q3dm6 "camping grounds"? potential 4v4 maps for the upcoming CAL season were discussed last night in #hl2dm.
there was an argument brought up saying, "..its a q3 map..no rips".
larger view of dm_octagons layout - http://synword.com/images/dm_octagon0001.png


(left)q3dm6 (right)dm_octagon

the choices on quality competitive hl2dm maps are few and far between.
dm_octagon, imo and the opinions of alot of other guys, is that this map is balanced and lots of fun.
q3dm6 "camping grounds", has been cloned in countless other fps games as well and played at a high level of competition.
doesn't that say enough about how brilliant this playing field was layed out?

cal admin(s), please take dm_octagon into consideration.

players, please post your thoughts on this argument and map.
thanks for your time folks!

http://www.hl2dm-university.com/forum/p ... 3dm6#p4625

That should answer your first question.

Swot currently has 2 maps in CAL Biohazard a HLDM map, and lost arena so far as I know an original work but then again the more games I play the more I realize how few maps really are original works.

As far as the map itself is concerned some people like it especially euros cause it is light on physics heavy on mag and the rocket is pretty hard for all but the most practiced to get which at first seems like a good thing to people who are new to the map. But the main complaint I heard from matches was that if one person could get the rocket it was a total rape as that team would just dominate the map. But it just does not do HL2DM justice IMHO. It is not a HL2DM map in that it does not accent the skills of hl2dm with physics and grav gun use and it isn't even made for HL2DM in the sense the map was pulled from another game. It is a nice map from a technical mapping stand point custom textures and models and other mapping tricks though. The weapons are also really light I mean I am pretty sure it has fewer weapons then tdm warlock which was rejected last night do to to few pickups for most people. Every time I have played it, it seemed like you could not get a weapon hardly ever.

I think the "no rips" rule is valid and that CAL should try to move in that direction because establishing our own identity is a good thing, but at the same time there is a shortage of high quality competitive maps suitable for 4v4.

My personal take is that an exception should be made until a suitable replacement can be found.

EDIT: Assuming it plays well in 4v4, I havent tried it.

Over time as the map list becomes further matured and refined I would expect to see it consist of all original designs and bug free revisions.

I always wondered about it for league play, After the draft in which it was played I thought it played well. As fearsome said weapons are at a bare minimum and until about 10 minutes of play i didn't understand the flow and which way to get weapons when an enemy was a certain way. I was getting pretty pissed with the map in 4v4 format, but i got the hang of it and made a match out of it.

It seems for 4v4 we are down to dm_cannon_r1 unless another map pops out of nowhere. I was excited about cannon_r1 but after pubbing it a bunch i have my doubts, But again i'd still like to test it in a 4v4 before i make up my mind.

Maybe the best course is to just put a ???? on week 7 until we come up with something. This is what dods has done so it is a quality map instead of something pushed through to complete a map list. Maybe this new map contest will be finished. Also might just be a good idea to do a map twice in the regular season.

The weapons are also really light I mean I am pretty sure it has fewer weapons then tdm warlock which was rejected last night do to to few pickups for most people. Every time I have played it, it seemed like you could not get a weapon hardly ever.

i LOL'd. warlock's number of weapons and general layout was literally called by certain individuals in this forum / community. all are and were before - CAL participants. each and every one of them. it went into the freaking design. and that's the joke right here.

you guys have it your way of course and who ever makes the rules..that's all fine and obviously a game within this game wink wink. i just read these debates from the outside and think...heh...how so very conditional this decision making is.
There isn't one single hl2dm map that is balanced 100%. fact. a map is REFERRED to as balanced because someone said so. the truth of the matter is that the very term BALANCED is out of place here. a map layout will be balanced for one and not for others. some people swear by lockdown, some can't stand it. many here praise it like nothing was before and nothing will be after it while lo and behold...it has clipping issues...lighting issues...it's cramped (OMG, how many maps have you people ruled out in this very forum over that particular category?) in so many parts of it. it's packed with mapping errors, laggy at choke points...you name it. but tsuk tsuk...nah nah - LD is bible. let's all forget it's actually bits and pieces someone tore (And not so gently) our of the Nova Prospekt maps in HL2 SP. same goes for OW...but yeah...that aside right? it's perfectly balanced. sheesh of course it is. uber balanced. lol. no clipping issue (wink wink @ clipping issues mentioned elsewhere. who said that? haha).
give me a break. LD is a damn good map but it's not the only map out there. and the only reason so many maps are being tossed away like they're crap (rrrrrrrright) is because a few "high ranked" "l33ts" know it inside out so they stomp anything that might sway the odds. how old. and how see through for anyone who hasn't had their common sense blurred by the bhoping society upside down reasoning.

let no one agree with me on a public forum. oh no. decision makers are reading these forums and you might find yourself out of draftnight or worse....brrr i don't want to even think about it. you people keep PMing me on steam and we share our precious moments of "truth" in there ok? no on the "U" forum no, never here. here we play dumb and post shit on the cafeteria zomg lolzbergers.

tsuk tsuk tsuk.


my bottom line is - some people here are missing the point and there is one. there is spontaneity, colorfulness, richness, creativity, new heights and new borders out there to see and reach out to. break the box you're in. this is a dying game that could use something new. you have become one of the powers who are cutting its life cords.

val

Val, I was one of the people that play tested TDM_Warlock the other night. The only issue I had was the fact that with 8 people, there were times that I had a hard time finding a weapon. There is an area that you can see shadows of someone on the other side of the walll as they run down it. The weapon issue is minor and easily corrected. I don't know about the other issue.

I feel that the map would be fine as a 2v2 as is (except the shadow problem should be dealt with). With a couple more weapons it could be fine for 4v4. It does have a different style of play which is why I put it up for a vote as a possible 2v2. I would love to discuss it with you some time. I just didn't have a chance with it being a holiday weekend here.

warlock was never meant as a 4vs4 map. its far too small for it.
and shadows on walls...lol...you mean one of the most well known HL2DM traits is now a problem? in what way?

tdm_warlock has enough weapons, and enough hp
so does dm_octagon but you have to know the maps and flow

At least come up with a good reason the maps shouldn't get in is the point. Ya took me pubbing, looking around and 4 scrims before i thought that tdm_warlock had enough weapons and HP. I mean in that scrim i didn't see anyone other then me get the RPG and i know you would have if you known where it is. And if you play any map the first thing you do is say, 'where is the RPG'. Also I didn't see 1 combine ball kill in that scrim. So that tells me you didn't know about the 2 combine balls on the map. Thats the 2 most powerful weapons in the game and they didn't get used, so i can only assume you didn't know about all the other weapons and pick-up which would change everyone opinion on the map and flow.

I would tend toward octagon being too small for a 4on4, but then again, I haven't tried it that way. The lack of props to throw is a legit concern though. Yeah, some people prefer it this way, but you might ask yourself why you're playing HL2DM if the grav gun is the thing you dislike...

Since I didn't get a respones in that other thread I posted in, I might as well ask here again. Does anyone have any experience with any of the following maps from a teamplay viewpoint? They are all maps with potential for teamplay I found by browsing the net a week ago or so. A few screenshots to possibly jog your memory. I haven't checked them much for things like weapon and spawn point placement, but I guess that's fixable without too much work.

dm_compressed_r1


dm_corrodeb5


dm_corrugated


dm_dgc_finca_v2 (improved dm_finca_housewarming)


dm_shockstreet (needs removal of one of the rpg's)

dm_thefactory


dm_urban_day07

My main thing regarding the weapons is the area with the long, straight dark hallway had a shotty in the other version. Now there is nothing there. Now that whole corner of the map has just one SMG nade and one regular grenade. I think the shotty should be put back or replaced with mag. There is only one one the map right now. That is my only real issue regarding weaps on that map. Otherwise its fine as far as weaps.

My main thing regarding the weapons is the area with the long, straight dark hallway had a shotty in the other version. Now there is nothing there. Now that whole corner of the map has just one SMG nade and one regular grenade. I think the shotty should be put back or replaced with mag. There is only one one the map right now. That is my only real issue regarding weaps on that map. Otherwise its fine as far as weaps.

Are you talking dm_octagon now? Because that has something like 4 mags and 5 shotties if I remember.

No Tdm_warlock. this sorta got hijacked

Ok i want to clarify. if anyone wants to discuss tdm_warlock for CAL yes or no - by all means let's take it to a different thread. i think it's called for.
The reason i posted here is coming from a broader standing point. the game standing point. not a certain map yes or no. Its about new maps as a rule. yes, new ways to play the game as a rule. NO to doing the same tired things over and over again.

Ah, sorry for the hi-jacking

And I haven't really tried tdm_warlock in a match. Difficult to get people to play new maps - so many that are so quick to dismiss them after a mere glance. Your chances are probably better doing a remake of something people already now, like if I took it upon myself to redo powerhouse it might get accepted (not that I'm planning to).

Ah, sorry for the hi-jacking

And I haven't really tried tdm_warlock in a match. Difficult to get people to play new maps - so many that are so quick to dismiss them after a mere glance. Your chances are probably better doing a remake of something people already now, like if I took it upon myself to redo powerhouse it might get accepted (not that I'm planning to).

*signs and nods*

I love playing new maps in leagues they always present a challenge and give something new to enjoy about the game. But when ever there is a new map there is always will be a group of players that resist it pretty much a fact of life some don't like change and are afraid to learn something new. Me also can be one of these players that don't like a map.
But as with any map or any game u got learn it to fully enjoy and be successfully on the map. Most of us are lazy in learning a map and in one way or another u could find something in a map that is not suitable and make a argument about it.

Octagon is a well made map i have had allot of 4v4, 3v3 on it and its runs well. But when i first came across it it was not like any another map i have played and hated it. But once i got used to how to move about the map and how everything was connected I started to really enjoy it. Once u understand these things and how the map works u can move fluently across the map and know where your going and what you can pick up. There are props u can throw but u have to press a button to get them and u do have the exploding balls. But there always seems to be a idea out there that maps have to be similar to stock maps in some way which i have never understand lockdown is a great map but is does not mean that every map has to be similar to it. Maps should not have to be in the same layout as each other and should in a competitive league have maps that offer verity that test a range of skills. Maps should be fair in other words balanced which is used allot. Balanced meaning u should have a weapon near by at one corner of the map that is compilable of giving u a fair chance of killing the opponent at the corner of the map to what is available to him.

Its a shame that this map is not used allot in leagues its well made and feels unique from other maps that we play. But as with anymap there can be improvements made to it to make it flow better and more balanced. I actually have a version of octagon with the RPG on the pipes since that in CU there this idea that RPG should be on everymap that is in the league that should be accessible.

TDM Warlock- not enuff stuff, Torque-too laggy, Steamlab-HORRIBLE MAP OMG, Overwatch-RPG is too powerful, not enuuf health so i can fly around in a circuit with 100/200!!-...
Maybe all the matches should be played on LV and AIM.

Octagon bites. It doesn't look like DM and is boring.

Corrugated rocks. Warlock is awesome.

Can we have some maps with physics besides LD and Bio? Physics seem to be disappearing.
At least Vault has physics, though the flow is up and back

Take a look at Area 22 for 4 v 4.
JMHO

Difficult to get people to play new maps - so many that are so quick to dismiss them after a mere glance. Your chances are probably better doing a remake of something people already now, like if I took it upon myself to redo powerhouse it might get accepted (not that I'm planning to).

This is true for players in general but for CAL you will very little luck porting or modding maps now unless it is your original map and you are just reworking it.

I too love new maps and I am always looking at FPS Banana and Snarkpit for new maps, I alsoo scan the server list and if I see a map name I don't recognize I will go check it out.

I think Octagon and Warlock are both great maps and they do have a different style of play and feel than most of the maps we currently have. I think both would be fine to play matches on.

I do see Fearsomes point about remakes and maps ripped from other games. We want to see new maps for DM, not rehashed Quake, Halo or UT3 maps. That said tho, I don't see why reason why we can't use totally new maps that have textures like Octagon or something else completely different from the same old HL textures and designs (how many prison maps do we really need?) that we have always had. Valar has been designing maps like crazy lately (a ton of maps on the last few months alone) with the thought of bringing a slightly different feel to maps than what we have had. Its true though it seems that this different style is being rejected and maybe it shouldn't be.

It is a shame that people are not more open minded to new things. They resist any new maps and chose to go back to the same old same old because its familiar or they are too lazy to learn a new map. These are often the same people that complain about the current maps. Its a no win situation.

dm_cannon: Plays, looks and feels like a slightly rehashed clone of dm_amplitude. Solid maps, both of them, but we dont need a pair of near identical maps running during the same season, and amp has never achieved great popularity to begin with. One or the other.

dm_warlock: Weapons arent a problem in 2v2, but the cramped quarters give an SP feel to the map, making movement is harsh in many areas. Also, long / narrow corridors + multiple sawblades ends up being a bad combo. The map also needs some additional clipping and nodraw retexturing. It would likely be a solid 2v2 map if the spacings could be widened out and the above noted issues were remedied.

dm_octagon: A slightly larger dm_lostarena (playstyle-wise) with gimmicks. Ive seen players trapped in the mobile staircase, and the only non 1-use props in the map (of which there are only 2 or 3) have to be accessed via buttons and dragged out of secret conpartments. 2-way ptrain 12 jump with potential ceiling hazards and a fatal penalty for messing up makes the rocket pretty pointless as well. Fun map to pub, but i dont see it faring well in league play.

The rest: I havent played most of those- have to look them over- but iirc corrode was previously used in STA and didnt fare well, while finca is yet another rip from a different game (though it played well in pubs, if one doesnt mind heavy mag/xbow action and minimal spam).

Never played octagon. Can't the ptrain12 thing be surpassed by grenade jumping or gravity gunning, or are these "ceiling hazards" preventing that?

It's not really a long jump, more like ptrain 6. The problem is that the ceiling is really low and irregular, meaning you have to make the jump with extreme precision in order not to bump into the ceiling and fall down into a meat grinder. There is a version with the rpg up by the pipes in the center, but that makes it a very rpg-centric map.

That the saw blads are hard to get to might rather be a good thing on this map with a lot of narrow corridors. There's plenty of exploding stuff to throw, so it's not like you have no use for your gravity gun.

warlock has 5 sawblades - is that multiple?
it has also a very short bit that is 2 players wide - is that the "cramped quarters" reference in your post, Ko-Tao?

not sure but maybe you played warlock only once or twice and never really got to learn this map?

also, what do you mean by "The map also needs some additional clipping and nodraw retexturing" ? can you be specific, give cc. .. anything to help understand what, who , where..

val

dm_corrodeb5


dm_corrugated

I've played dm_corrodeb5 a bunch in the earlier days of AAT/STA 4v4 and 3v3, I always enjoyed it,
RPG is hard to get to since you have to go through water for a while, It was turned down because movement was harsh with the low ceiling in spot. Although i can't say i had any problems with it at the time, I could hardly bhop then.

Haven't played corrugated in a scrim(Looks like a good map)but the placement of the rpgs kinda scare me for league play, that and i'm not sure about the flow with a bunch of the weapons in hard to reach spots. I like what he did with the combine balls being in a hard spot to get, but combine balls are going to be next to useless with 2 RPG's in high spots overlooking the entire map. So it looks like the mapper has never played hl2dm before.

warlock has 5 sawblades - is that multiple?
it has also a very short bit that is 2 players wide - is that the "cramped quarters" reference in your post, Ko-Tao?

not sure but maybe you played warlock only once or twice and never really got to learn this map?

also, what do you mean by "The map also needs some additional clipping and nodraw retexturing" ? can you be specific, give cc. .. anything to help understand what, who , where..

val

The saws can become overwhelming because its possible in a 2v2 to pretty much always be carrying one (the ggun hum can also be silenced), and if you meet someone around a blind corner or in a narrow passage, both of which are numerous, its usually an instant kill. Replacing all but one of the blades with props that are easier to catch / harder to use would fix the problem nicely.

The nodraw isnt generally a problem, but there are a couple areas near the rpg where a player can get up on the roof and have free wallhax access to most of the map- which makes for a fun game of laser tag for whoevers camping, but not so fun or balanced for their victims. Player clipping off that whole area would probably be better than texturing the nodraw, as that area is too good for camping even if the entire map isnt visible.

Theres also one area where invisible clip is replacing the need to jump to a ledge... not a big deal, but it was noticable and seems out of place.

Ill be happy to point out any of the above ingame if you like as well.

warlock has 5 sawblades - is that multiple?
it has also a very short bit that is 2 players wide - is that the "cramped quarters" reference in your post, Ko-Tao?

not sure but maybe you played warlock only once or twice and never really got to learn this map?

also, what do you mean by "The map also needs some additional clipping and nodraw retexturing" ? can you be specific, give cc. .. anything to help understand what, who , where..

val

The saws can become overwhelming because its possible in a 2v2 to pretty much always be carrying one (the ggun hum can also be silenced), and if you meet someone around a blind corner or in a narrow passage, both of which are numerous, its usually an instant kill. Replacing all but one of the blades with props that are easier to catch / harder to use would fix the problem nicely.

The nodraw isnt generally a problem, but there are a couple areas near the rpg where a player can get up on the roof and have free wallhax access to most of the map- which makes for a fun game of laser tag for whoevers camping, but not so fun or balanced for their victims. Player clipping off that whole area would probably be better than texturing the nodraw, as that area is too good for camping even if the entire map isnt visible.

Theres also one area where invisible clip is replacing the need to jump to a ledge... not a big deal, but it was noticable and seems out of place.

Ill be happy to point out any of the above ingame if you like as well.

no i got exactly the locations and what you mean. Thank you.