Match Scheduling Issues

OK guys, seems like teams, particularly 4v4 teams are still having trouble scheduling matches.
Seems like everyone wants to do it on the weekend, and most of the time due to timing, it gets done the weekend after default which causes some issues.

We have been discussing this and I would like to know:

If we switched the 4v4 default day to Tuesday and 1v1 to Thursday, would that help the 4v4 teams get an agreed upon time for the weekend before default or will everyone just continue to procrastinate and the matches get even further behind and everything further fucked up?

that's what i said last season, Tuesday is better giving more weekdays to get people together

1v1 doesn't need that just 2 people not 8

ya, 4v4 is really tough to schedule, especially if you only have 4-5 players.

well, i'd have to drop out of 1v in that case.

No you wouldnt Cellar, you would have until Thursday of the next week to schedule. That still leaves M-W for you.

true, with a cooperative opponent.

but more often than not, it seems to play on default. its no biggie, and not a reason not to do it.

Why are the default days not ON the weekends? Ive never quite understood that to be honest.

Sacrifist wrote:Why are the default days not ON the weekends? Ive never quite understood that to be honest.

The belief was that people would want their weekends free of such obligations. Considering most matches end up played on the weekends, the original line of thinking has pretty much been proven false.

for me that's true. i would not play in any CAL division with a default on Fri or Sat at least. Sun evening maybe... but in the spring/summer/fall... that would be pretty iffy.

Default is just default, a deadline to keep things moving along. Make it Sunday Night, release schedule on Monday, and teams have all week and all weekend to get it done. This middle of the week default is nonsense.

default is the key though. regardless of when its set... you get the same 6 days to play, just in different order of days. there's still a weekend between every default date. not everyone plays 7 days a week. i consider myself lucky when i get 10 to 12 hours a week to play. that usually translates to about 3 hours per setting on 3 nights a week. for me thats mon, tue, wed... which works well for the divisions i signed up for. those are the nights that my personal schedule are best suited for. if default were on a weekend for any of those divisions, i would not have signed up for them. the only exception for me is the 4v on thu... i am signed up for that but only as an alternate if needed on a mon/tue/wed match.

but yes, its more difficult to schedule a 4v for a weekend when the new schedule is posted on a Fri. i understand that argument for changing the 4v default.

I disagree... we would prefer a default time and date in order to schedule around kids, spouses, work and school for some of our younger members... trying to schedule on teh weekend seems to be nearly impossible... the only way the weekend ever worked in our earlier days in the ILDM was having a default time every saturday afternoon, but weekends are generally full of other activities it was difficult to line up enough people.

Just schedule your match to when you can play it. The point is most folks week is Monday thru Sunday. Having the schedule come out Monday allows all week to get with folks and play. Default is still just default. If you have to delay till Monday following default, that is what you have to do. Having the match week kick off on Wednesday or Thursday seems goofy, especially if most matches are getting played on the weekend.
We already seem to have gathered the fuse is shortened by releasing the schedule and playing within 3 to 4 days. So fix it?!?!?

i dont really care for the default date either, not the date itself, the idea. the reason being, if both teams are trying their best to get the match played but because time zones and player availability etc, they cant get it scheduled, the team that happens to have players ready on the night of the default date will get the win, when in theory the team that got the FL could have had players ready every night BUT the defualt date. my proposal, and im not sure if this can happen or not, but it would be super sweet if it could, is set a deadline, not a default date. for example, week 3 matches must be played(or in progress of being played) by Sunday *w/e date* 11:59pm eastern. if neither team can get that match done by the deadline, then neither team gets any points, and that match would go into a "holding pool" you can make up any matches you have in the holding pool at anytime, BUT you CANT make the playoffs with games left in the holding pool. you can only play the match against the team you were supposed to play that week. now the holding pool WILL have a defualt date, say one week before the end of the season. for any given match in the holding pool, if one team shows up on that default date and the other doesnt, they get the full points for that match. (this will prevent last place teams from trying to screw teams trying to get in the playoffs, and they cant use the excuse that they couldnt make the default date because they had all season to get that match played)

my next idea is, in addition to having a match comm. there is a calendar for that week, each player on both teams clicks on days and a range of times they can play during that week, they do this at the beginning of the week. that way there is no need to wait to see when players are available because its right there for anybody on the team to see. with this system it will be very easy to see the days and times that work well for both teams

That would lead to a mess of accounting for matches for the admins.

Using the current system, teams have two weeks to make up a match before getting in trouble, so there already is a de facto deadline, a date when Teams get suspended.

maybe dead teams shouldn't be scheduled?

The Argumentalizer wrote:That would lead to a mess of accounting for matches for the admins.

Using the current system, teams have two weeks to make up a match before getting in trouble, so there already is a de facto deadline, a date when Teams get suspended.

not at all,this would take the burnden OFF the amdins at week end when we make the schedules we just push the unplayed games in to the holding pool. done. the its on the teams to get it played b4 the holding pool deadline.

ninojman wrote:maybe dead teams shouldn't be scheduled?

yes, but what do you consider "dead"? i've tried to clean up my divisions, but with all these rogue teams, i have no idea who is for real and who isnt. give me a formula for a "dead team" at this point of the season. teams that didnt play the first 2 weeks yet? how do i know it wasnt their fault? by that logic, 911 would be out of 2v2 main. i've deactivated all teams with less than 2 players. or suspended players. other than that i cant tell who is gonna play and who isnt at this point. so i have no choice but to schedule them

We do sort of have a "holding pool". You have until the default date of week 8 to submit any makeup matches for forfiets you had during the season.

Just as a reminder:

Any team that has a FW can schedule a makeup against any other team that has a FW that week you have until the default of week 8 to do it.

Any team that has a FL can only make up that match with the team the were supposed to play that week. The team with the FW doesnt have to give them a match tho. However the if the team with the FW goes and gets a makeup with another team, the FL team can still make up that match with them for points. In this case, the FW team wont get extra points if they already got a makeup, but they are doing the FL team a huge favor.

Because the FL have been such a problem, we have been deactivating those teams to get them out of the scheduling.


And as far as Dead teams, Chem is correct, the problem isnt Dead (old teams) the problem is what he calls the rogue teams. Ones that joined this season and never play or respond in matchcomm. We have been deleting the "old" and "dead" teams, but there are some we have missed because before last season, they were not deleated, just inactive and they have remained in the damn database and for some insane reason were reactivated.

I for one would agree that any teams that we are not 100% sure of, should get deleated at the end of each season.

However the if the team with the FW goes and gets a makeup with another team, the FL team can still make up that match with them for points. In this case, the FW team wont get extra points if they already got a makeup, but they are doing the FL team a huge favor.

This has never been allowed, not to mention how badly messed up the rpis and ratings would be if a team ended up playing 16 matches across a season. Teams that took a fl and couldnt make it up just had to accept the 0 point week as cost for not scheduling / showing.

I dont see any allowance for this in the rules, either.

Ko-Tao wrote:

However the if the team with the FW goes and gets a makeup with another team, the FL team can still make up that match with them for points. In this case, the FW team wont get extra points if they already got a makeup, but they are doing the FL team a huge favor.

This has never been allowed, not to mention how badly messed up the rpis and ratings would be if a team ended up playing 16 matches across a season. Teams that took a fl and couldnt make it up just had to accept the 0 point week as cost for not scheduling / showing.

I dont see any allowance for this in the rules, either.

/agree with ko,
when did that become the rule para? :X

{EE}chEmicalBurn wrote:

ninojman wrote:maybe dead teams shouldn't be scheduled?

yes, but what do you consider "dead"? i've tried to clean up my divisions, but with all these rogue teams, i have no idea who is for real and who isnt. give me a formula for a "dead team" at this point of the season. teams that didnt play the first 2 weeks yet?

Yes if a team misses one match schedule them against another team that hasn't played, if a team doesn't respond in match comms deactivate them. If they really wanna play they can always pm you. And go back and make up missed matches. Another thing to do is not have 3-4 months of dead time between seasons but that's goes to another issue.


Zman you did that favor for $w last season going back and letting them make-up a FL?
Isn't that what see is talking about?

ninojman wrote:
Zman you did that favor for $w last season going back and letting them make-up a FL?
Isn't that what see is talking about?

I wish you would get the fuck off my back. If we made up a forfiet with them we didn't make it up with anyone else. paradox is saying that now if you ffw a team and make it up with a different team, you can still make it up with the original team but not get any points, only they get points, and im saying thats dumb. also i didnt do sw any favors last season, I talked to YOU about whether or not 3v4 was acceptable if both teams agreed to it and you said you supposed so. im fucking done with this.

ok, ya that's dumb that means the FFw team gets two matches. Never said anything about 3v4 or that match at all. I thought she was talking about the FFw team just making it up with the FFL team weeks after. Which the only match i could think of that happen like that was $w v flas

What is wrong with both FW and FL teams to make it up with another team they weren't scheduled and who was also a FW or FL team!?!?!

The Argumentalizer wrote:What is wrong with both FW and FL teams to make it up with another team they weren't scheduled and who was also a FW or FL team!?!?!

ignore him

give me one good reason why a team would have any incentive to give a team who did not cooperate with scheduling, then got a Fw only to have to go out and find another team willing to play, would ever go and help out the team who did not cooperate, by giving them a match they could make points off of, but the winning team by FW could not. Makes no sense what so ever.

This scheduling system in 4v4 just does not work as it is, and is one of the many reasons why Fusion is not doing 4v4 this season.

The Argumentalizer wrote:What is wrong with both FW and FL teams to make it up with another team they weren't scheduled and who was also a FW or FL team!?!?!

Remember, the team with the fw gets to makeup their match because its not their fault that the original match wasnt played. The team with the fl gets no such liberty, as they are to blame for the failed match; also, whats the incentive to actually try to schedule and get matches played if you can just bail out of all your fls later?

this discussion is almost as bad as cevo banning being able to hit crouch 3 times...





































































































































































YOU CROUCH AND YOUR BANNED
(LOL MADE YOU SCROLL)

Ko-Tao wrote:

The Argumentalizer wrote:What is wrong with both FW and FL teams to make it up with another team they weren't scheduled and who was also a FW or FL team!?!?!

Remember, the team with the fw gets to makeup their match because its not their fault that the original match wasnt played. The team with the fl gets no such liberty, as they are to blame for the failed match; also, whats the incentive to actually try to schedule and get matches played if you can just bail out of all your fls later?

I believe the system as it is REQUIRES a forfeit win reported after the default time passes.
That MAY happen because it isn't possible to play by default and of course, makes a Default date and time a MANDATORY one, not a guideline.

If i misunderstand the rules, my fault.

Ko-Tao wrote:

The Argumentalizer wrote:What is wrong with both FW and FL teams to make it up with another team they weren't scheduled and who was also a FW or FL team!?!?!

Remember, the team with the fw gets to makeup their match because its not their fault that the original match wasnt played. The team with the fl gets no such liberty, as they are to blame for the failed match; also, whats the incentive to actually try to schedule and get matches played if you can just bail out of all your fls later?

This isnt always the case. What if the team that cant play on the default day posts plenty of dates and times that they can play, but the other team are bitches and give that team a forfeit loss because they cant play on the default day? To me, that makes default day some type of requirement. If the team that cant play on default, tries more then once to get the match played, it shouldnt be considered their fault. To me, it is the team that thinks default time and day is some special manditory match date that is at fault. This is why I think having a manditory time and date is silly. Why not just say that the week starts on Sunday and ends on Saturday. You will have the whole week to take care of the match? Not hard to do if you ask me.

I can see how having mandatory date make sense in a way that it is how sports (nhl nfl etc.) with a studied and developped efficient technique on how to deal with events and scheduling makes sense. However may i remind you gentlemen (and the like... 3 women)
You could be on the team winning CAL 2v2 and 4v4 and be the winner of CAL 1v1...

YOU

GET

NOTHING. (not even a piece of licorice)

No we aren't winning millions playing this game in this league. Yeah just say you have the entire week to play (say 2 matches) and people just sort it out in matchcomm this makes sense.

No one will get sponsored by logitech for being pro at hl2dm.
No one will be famous over the internet for being pro at hl2dm.
No one at your school knows what hl2dm is.

hl2dm CAL is for entertainment purpose and also it keeps people interested in the game.
sooooooooooooooooooo, don't make it a pain in the ass.

But then again, i might not even play this season, who am i to talk, silly me

Sacrifist wrote:This isnt always the case. What if the team that cant play on the default day posts plenty of dates and times that they can play, but the other team are bitches and give that team a forfeit loss because they cant play on the default day?

This is a valid point and one I have brought up before in seasons past. Team Fusion being a west coast team has had some cases where teams on the east coast would simply post in match comm "default day and time" and nothing else. The problem arises for us when the default time no matter what day it is translates to 6:00 PST and for the most part normal people are not even home from work at that time yet.
I think that if admins are seeing a team make many attempts (in MC) to schedule some other day or time besides default, they should not be allowed to be given a FL.

you either have a weekly cut-off for reporting or you don't. no matter how you slice and dice the week, you will get an ipso facto default.

w/o that, you schedule all 8 weeks with all the teams rostered at the beginning of week one and allow teams to play and report in whatever order is convenient to them.

both ways have issues.

"this discussion is almost as bad as cevo banning being able to hit crouch 3 times..."

i just spam crouch twice now, gg!

A final set in stone date is necessary to prevent teams from just refusing to agree on a time and dragging matches out forever. It also allows players to set aside that specific time each week and know its either a match or a fw, no need to waste a ton of time and effort dicking around with the other team or trying to edit your schedule for every match.

The current default greatly favors eastern players, though. Setting the time an 30-60 mins later might be a good idea, something to consider for next season, anyway.

Seagull wrote:"this discussion is almost as bad as cevo banning being able to hit crouch 3 times..."

i just spam crouch twice now, gg!

My opinion of cevo as a league just got a whole lot lower.

Ya I hadnt really thought the whole thing through when I said that. In any case the FW team is always doing the FL team a favor by doing the makeup match with them. They have every right to schedule a make up 15 minutes after default if the other team does not show. I was just trying to find a way that if a team has a bad week and gets a FL, they can somehow get a makeup if the other team was willing to do them the favor. Just trying not to lose what might otherwise be an active team. In any case the CAL reporting system doesnt allow for it anyway, so the whole arguement is moot


Impala, the reason a FL team cant go find another FL team to play is because if they come across someone like EWR or SW they will just FL on purpose and go find a team they can beat or do better against for their RPI.

The only way to really do it is to continue as we have and the FL is screwed if the FW team gets a make up.

Two suggestions Nino and I had was to make the points difference between a loss and FW greater. Ie make the L, W for teams worth more. Also we could make a rule that any team with more than 2 FW cant make playoffs. This will encourage teams to get matches and makeups done.

The Argumentalizer wrote:What is wrong with both FW and FL teams to make it up with another team they weren't scheduled and who was also a FW or FL team!?!?!

here is whats wrong with it. lets say a team is scheduled against ewr/911/$w. the team knows they are gonna get smoked, so they dont play. then in a few weeks they see a lesser experience team has a FL(and may have got that FL by doing the samething) now those 2 teams play. both teams have a better chance of getting a win that way. it makes no sense. in my suggestion, that team that did the FL would STILL have to make that game up with ewr/911/$w b4 the holding pool default date is up. why even have a schedule if teams are not going to play the team that they are scheduled against. my suggestion makes sense. its logical and it prevents all of this shit from happening...i sincerly hope ppl read my suggestion again and give me feedback, i dont see a down side to my method. but sometimes critsism helps to see an angle i didnt see.

Ko-Tao wrote:My opinion of cevo as a league just got a whole lot lower.

Is that possible?

.conflict wrote: No one will get sponsored by logitech for being pro at hl2dm.
No one will be famous over the internet for being pro at hl2dm.
No one at your school knows what hl2dm is.

i don't know about you but i get mad bitches when i tell them "yea I'm pro at hl2dm".

Blasphemy wrote:i don't know about you but i get mad bitches when i tell them "yea I'm pro at hl2dm".

wow seems a bit complex arranging games at CAL im having trouble understanding how things get done.

As far as could understand you guys have three matches every week and rather than given a deadline like you would get for piece homework you given game dates like emm exam date.

I can see the pros and cons of these two.

On the match dates.
everyone got commitments in their life and don't have much control of over them. The logistics of all 4-8 people all being available for one date a week is pretty slim especially with time zone differences. You will need a pretty big squad to be able to do it.

On game deadlines.
Well you got 6 teams in the mix in one week now for 1 team to arrange 3 matches a week is difficult because one team might set a date that clashes with another and if communications between all 6 teams is not good (likely they won't be) it all just ends up being a big mess and arguments between teams will go on "its your fault not agreeing to days we want".

If it was 1 game a week then yea deadline will suit but when it 3 games a week with 6 teams involved then its unlikely they will be organised enough to sort out dates without problems. With set dates for games date has been chosen for you so all u have to do is decide what time only problem is only players that can arrange their life around these dates will only that will be able play but I suppose you have safety net in place for matches not being played on those days.

I have no idea if this is how it is its just how I see it look from the outside.

The Argumentalizer wrote:

Ko-Tao wrote:

The Argumentalizer wrote:What is wrong with both FW and FL teams to make it up with another team they weren't scheduled and who was also a FW or FL team!?!?!

Remember, the team with the fw gets to makeup their match because its not their fault that the original match wasnt played. The team with the fl gets no such liberty, as they are to blame for the failed match; also, whats the incentive to actually try to schedule and get matches played if you can just bail out of all your fls later?

I believe the system as it is REQUIRES a forfeit win reported after the default time passes.
That MAY happen because it isn't possible to play by default and of course, makes a Default date and time a MANDATORY one, not a guideline.

If i misunderstand the rules, my fault.

Forces the forfeit to whichever team made Default or agreed time by sunday helped last season. Fusion just had to play a bitch team in icon. But ya a 7pst/10est time wouldn't be to bad for default. Although having 5 active on the roster would be smart also.

but as of now default day kinda sucks because the you don't have time to schedule before default for the weekend. If matches come out as soon as possible. If default was Tuesday, and matches came out on Wed,thursday you could get with your team then the other team to play on the weekend. Which would help the east/west thing a bit.

Sun / Mon / Tue / Wed / Thur / Fri / Sat

Two suggestions Nino and I had was to make the points difference between a loss and FW greater. Ie make the L, W for teams worth more. Also we could make a rule that any team with more than 2 FW cant make playoffs. This will encourage teams to get matches and makeups done.

The current points system already hugely favors played matches, win lose or draw. Also, limiting fws isnt necessary as their minimal point value ensures no one with a load of them will make t8.

Ko-Tao wrote:

Two suggestions Nino and I had was to make the points difference between a loss and FW greater. Ie make the L, W for teams worth more. Also we could make a rule that any team with more than 2 FW cant make playoffs. This will encourage teams to get matches and makeups done.

The current points system already hugely favors played matches, win lose or draw. Also, limiting fws isnt necessary as their minimal point value ensures no one with a load of them will make t8.

ko tao strikes again! another good point!

Yes the current point system does, but maybe it needs to be more to give more incentive because it obviously is not enough of an incentive.