how did you handle cheaters?

hello. i would like to know how the former admins of cal and idml and warzone and other leagues i forgot handled cheating matters.
what was proof enough for you to ban someone from your league?
(vac ban, hlstats ban, screenshots, chatwindows, demos, see someone posting in cheating forums, xray account, using skins on pure server, admitting with voice communications...)
i am very interested in your opinions and experiences

Well how CAL was ran they used ACS, CEVO uses CMN3, and i forgot what ESEA uses but from about 3 years of playing competatively these programs never caught/detected anyone who didnt want to get caught. Of course they caught the obvious people who didnt try and hide it, but if the programs couldnt catch those people why even use it. I saw that on the CU forums you guys are going to start using x-ray, some anti cheat system i guess? I dont really think its going to make a difference if someone wants to cheat there going to do it and if they dont want to get caught there not going to get caught. Theres always ways around all anti cheat systems to not get detected, The only logical way i've seen that cheaters get banned faster is by experienced players, who know what there doing and take factors into consideration when viewing demos of the player ex. vent call outs, and just plain randomness. Also if someone comes out of nowhere and rapes everyone and has a 9 digit id, hes obviously an aliaser or cheating, considering the amount of people that still play this game and the amount of attention this game draws out to proffessional players, there wont really be new up and coming stars but then again someone could prove me wrong.



inb4 cool essay nerd or tl;dr

anti cheat systems havent really proven to work better than the actual players when it comes to catching cheaters, but more of just take up a fuck load of resources on my computer

good question, its EXTREMELY difficult. we actually had a whole season of CAL put on hold to investigate an accusation from somebody about one my clanmates. not even sure the thread is on here any more. the good thing about hl2dm is there are so many advanced movements that take time to learn. so i usually look at what the player is doing in relation to how long he/she has been playing. you can also watch their play with nodraw on and see if they were walling, but again, its not concrete.

We have mainly relied upon player demo review. I don't want nor envision x-ray part of the N.A. CU league. There are and always will be ways to circumvent anticheat clients. If there is ever someone accused in N.A. all players are already mandated to record POV demos, they will be forced to provide demos reviewed by me and Edge, and any clan captain or co-captain that is willing to participate to take part in the review is welcome to.

All the captains and co-captains of the current teams I know of such as Edge, LukeGT, Blas, Vitamin are reasonable and are trustable in a community review such as this IMO.

Watch clips submitted by seagull, with wireframe on. Only accusation, i remember were both made by seagull. he accused invx and nutri of walling. both accusation where made after his team lost go figure.

Edit: almost forgot sir ducer, iirc ace blew the whistle on that one

Watch clips submitted by seagull, with wireframe on. Only accusation, i remember were both made by seagull. he accused invx and nutri of walling. both accusation where made after his team lost go figure.

Edit: almost forgot sir ducer, iirc ace blew the whistle on that one

The grain dispute came not after a match loss at all but after scrimmages that had suspicious activity and if I recall right seagull won all the scrimmages. And those were not even close to the only 2 cheat disputes CAL had. If I was only that lucky. Most people who were disputed did not go blowing it open the community and posting on message boards / making a big deal out of it. Members of $W and other major clans were disputed.

We received several cheat disputes per season. Most were bogus IE a total noob accusing someone of cheating for very basic things. But in every case the cheat dispute had to be looked into which meant combing over demos, and we never blew any of them off we at least took the opportunity to see if something suspicious was taking place even if the player was someone we never had any suspicion of. In CAL because it was a highly structured league with people over top of us there was a sequence of events. We of course had CAL ACS to detect cheating and on top of that everyone was required to take in game screen shots of the other players as well record demos. If a dispute arose demos were requested and admins had to go forward and look them over. This took many hours to do carefully because the only way people were going to get caught is if they did something very obvious. Unfortunately only the biggest idiots with sub 50 IQs would ever do that. After all those years no one was ever officially busted in CAL mostly because we as CAL admins aired on the side of it is better to let a cheater go then bust an innocent person. And due to the structure we could not really pull off alot of things. IE in CAL screen shots or chat logs outside of matches were not admissible evidence. In fact very little was allowed because any of those items could be faked. Most smaller leagues would not put up with this.

There were a couple things worth mentioning. 1 HL2DM has no-one that I am aware of that is a good at looking through demos for cheaters. I quickly realized that I was in fact the expert in this community. A couple other guys were decent but most games have a couple guys who do it almost as a hobby and are very good at it. Usually they are not a member of any major clan and people tend to trust their opinion. 2. No one trusted me so I might as well have not existed in the anticheat system. I was infact the person who exonerated invx there was a very fishy scene which I figured out was a source TV error combined with a lucky spawn timing. Had I not been admin I am pretty sure invx would have been busted on that demo. The important thing to recognize is that anti cheat is fucking hard, and this community has much less experience and tools then it really needs. People who should not have been busted were almost busted, people who should have been busted have never seen a dispute filed against them. There is one player I pretty much knew was hacking and the problem was despite that we never lost to his team in a match so we did not waste our 2 disputes. Then later on he admitted it. No one else disputed and there are several players I was surprised never had a dispute filed against them. There were also times we let people off who we really were pretty sure were hacking but like I said if it was not completely obvious then it was let go.

"There is one player I pretty much knew was hacking and the problem was despite that we never lost to his team in a match so we did not waste our 2 disputes."

Was it that Arm guy?

Watch clips submitted by seagull,

any of those items could be faked.

That's about right.

No I consider arm to be busted his demo was IQ 50 obvious. However that was a pub and I don't even think he was playing in CAL at the time. Later he renamed and joined 911 and in the finals he made an obvious mistake with whatever Dallas' league was called at that time.

Would be interesting to see a list of well known players that have been found cheating and/or with vaced accounts. etc.

That would be All the Euros. Just get a list of all the European clans and pick three names at random.
They are all vac banned and on new accounts.

And there is a few American's that hack, like Poor Billy.

Watch clips submitted by seagull, with wireframe on. Only accusation, i remember were both made by seagull. he accused invx and nutri of walling. both accusation where made after his team lost go figure.

Edit: almost forgot sir ducer, iirc ace blew the whistle on that one

The grain dispute came not after a match loss at all but after scrimmages that had suspicious activity and if I recall right seagull won all the scrimmages.

SW lost to ewr in cal 4v4 and shortly after, grain/pb beat seagull/yard. I remember watching the match on stv, grain/pb lost on lockdown but seagull got beat down pretty bad on cavs. I think they also had some more 2v2's on amp irrc.

hl2dm has been pretty horrible at anti-cheat. Mostly because players have no other gaming background. There were very few disputes in hl2dm NA period. Cal CS and DOD is was pretty common, if you have any thought of it, you disputed. And one thing that hl2dm always missed the ball was a suspension was never handed down even if it could have. Several times in dods someone would get disputed and have some crazy stupid excuse of why a demo was missing and just get a 3 month ban. They usually caught the cheaters and hacking in scrims and pubs, although you needed the rcon status just like you would in any dispute. Even the little stuff would get you a ban, missing end round ss, missing net_graph 3, missing rcon status was all a 1 week suspension. For the first time. But look at all the trouble it took to get people to load irc in hl2dm. Shit when i was in sta I had a well known hl2dm team that was pretty good get mad that I told them they had to enter there steam id's into the system before they could play. So they got mad and quti sta.

Shit in dods my team beat this css team that disputed my team because they were mad. We had all of our ss's and demo's but I forgot the rcon status from the second round. So the match was overturned and the team leader (me) and manager got 1 week suspension. Dods had a lot of cheating and it normally wasn't until after the fact. But a lot of the nit picking for the little stuff kept it clean for the most part and at least you can catch some people.

As stated before, unless the person is a total idiot and does shit that is blatently obvious, it is very hard to prove. CAL HL2DM didnt have the benefit of an anticheat team like the other games did so normally a team of admins not associated with either the disputing or disputed teams reviewed the demos, then each of them were asked if they felt there was grounds for the accusation. In both situations that I was involved in, the review team couldnt find conclusive evidence of haxing.

I have seen only one person in HL2DM that I absolutely knew was using an aim bot and that was in a pub. I have been told of others that used hax, but cant be sure myself.

Poor Billy was not in the demos I saw that resulted in the investigation grain was playing with rejected or rico I think, SWs loss to ewr was some time earlier in the season the cheat dispute happened just before playoffs those 2 thins were not right next to each other. No one in SW made any comments about grain cheating during the loss to ewr other then the fact that nino switched the match around to make SW play ewr on ewrs best map early in the season which was not what the auto scheduler had pulled for him.

Where CAL cheat disputes as bad ad CSS or DOD no of course not but there were many more than just 2 of them that's for sure.

The whole problem to me is that we try to go at it in this scientific way. "Yea there was this little tiny sound 2 miles away that gave this dude away while 3 explosions and smg fire were going off at the same time so its k."

Gut feeling is the best way to go about it IMO. If someone just doesn't seem right when they play and isn't the same as everyone else in a certain way and it seems fishy, gtfo. Also, if the person is disliked by a lot of the community and is an asshole or something, that's just added benefit to kicking their asses out. Majority rules if people don't like you you're out, that's how I think it should go.

And a lot of people claim bad connection or something and that's why they're so weird. Well, gtfo for that too. Would a Honda Civic be allowed to race against formula one cars? No, cause it'd have no chance. However, in this game it seems that having a bad connection helps you rather than hurts you in many ways, which is completely retarded.

EDIT: I was told before how this kinda "system" used somewhat in TF2 and that it works well, it sounded good to me. Much better than this stupid ass anticheat system hardcore proof bullshit we got/had going. TF2's got a way bigger community though, 5 people wanting someone banned in hl2dm is pretty much the majority of the community so idk if there's a point to it.

But, I've also seen firsthand that cheat accusations in this game do absolutely nothing and they're pretty much useless. So, I hold my tongue and resolve to get better than those people even with their bs qualities.

Yea that talk about bad connections or wateva. There are certain ppl that get around who just wont fucking die half the time. Reminds me of this player i saw in a server last week called "Anonymous", the guy moved really slow, aimed really slow, and was just slow slow slow....But the fucker just wouldnt ever die, he could walk around slowly while about 5 noobs are smg'ing him, plus taking hits from me and can slowly and calmy take everyone out one by one. He joined a server i was in a day after that also, spawned, i went BAM, BAM, BAM 3 double shotty blasts, lots of blood, plus he took an explosion that allmost hit him dead on, PLUS 2 noobs shooting smg at him, and he finally died after someone threw a nade at me and missed, hit him instead.
Point being, i agree, ppl with that shit going on can just fuck off, its rediculous. And like, wat the fuck?

The grain dispute came not after a match loss at all but after scrimmages that had suspicious activity...
.... screen shots or chat logs outside of matches were not admissible evidence. In fact very little was allowed because any of those items could be faked.

if i recall correctly the CAL season was put on hold for weeks waiting for grain to submit demos of CAL matches. im pretty sure it was because of a CAL match in question. lets just say for argument sake it wasnt. if situations occuring outside of CAL league play arent "admissible evidence" it seems a little hipocritical to use them as the basis for that issue. further more, why would he have to submit CAL demos if it wasnt a CAL dispute in question? when i was a CAL admin for a short time i dont ever recall seeing a section in the rules that stated a dispute can be filed during the CAL season(to the magnitude of putting the season on hold) because one suspect a player of cheating during "scrimmages that had suspicious activity". also if you are the self proclaimed "expert in this community" on dectecting cheating and "HL2DM has no-one that I am aware of that is a good at looking through demos for cheaters" why was Luke the cheat admin?
So by this logic the cheat admin would have no idea what he was doing unless guided by the only person who can do it, all the while the expert being a member of the same clan, the very same clan that filed the dispute in the first place, by a team member that wasnt a member of the clan but was recruited souly to help beat the team they accused of cheating based on evidence the isnt admissable? that sounds acceptable.

[quote="The Argumentalizer"] That would be All the Euros. Just get a list of all the European clans and pick three names

That would be All the Euros. Just get a list of all the European clans and pick three names

Yeah just ignore him. He probably failed to conceptualize Europe has like 10x the players we do because its a continent, and that if America had the sheer number of players Europe does we'd have a similar cheating ratio.

He's just a sad old ignorant washed up shell of a man. At any rate why are we really arguing about a dead league, and a dead game. Who cares, CAL is gone; any cheating accusations will be made public by me and Edge, nothing will be held in the dark...

That would be All the Euros. Just get a list of all the European clans and pick three names

Yeah just ignore him. He probably failed to conceptualize Europe has like 10x the players we do because its a continent, and that if America had the sheer number of players Europe does we'd have a similar cheating ratio.

He's just a sad old ignorant washed up shell of a man. At any rate why are we really arguing about a dead league, and a dead game. Who cares, CAL is gone; any cheating accusations will be made public by me and Edge, nothing will be held in the dark...

i suspect the CAL ACS was not as robust of an anti-cheat system as it was billed to be. perhaps thats why there was so much mystery as to how it worked and who had actual access to view the ACS goodies.

i gave due dilligence to the only cheating dispute to come my way as an admin. i must say, its not an easy process. demo's are notoriously unreliable for viewing and re-viewing the same sequence of events. turning wireframe on makes everyone look like a hacker at some point in any demo. in the end, i could find no smoking gun for the specific kills suspected. i had a high degree of confidence in all the kills being legit.

then along comes voz with his "photoshopped" hacks. and i got to looking at the menu options of the "photoshopped" hacks. and i realized how sophisticated and scalable the hacks really are. it just blew my mind. nothing like the easily observable homemade hacks i'd seen adminning pubs. the degree of subtlety that an intelligent hacker can make use of is just demoralizing.

the solution i see is for a board/group/whatever to get "trained" up on all the latest, greatest hacks around. and i mean really trained to scrutinize cheating. develop a bank of known demos with known hacks/ers for this group to learn from. even better would be for an admitted cheater to provide the lessons/examples to this group. then, this group can be used to settle disputes in league play. or server admins could tap into the group and get recommendations on player bans. of course, there are a lot of problems with this approach too.

another option is just to announce that all league cheating disputes are ruled upon by the preponderance of admins. in other words... 51%. teams know about the rule upfront and decide before the season starts if thats acceptable to them.

I think tiggy answered this question on separate thread http://www.hl2dm-university.com/forum/p ... =10&t=4900

Where CAL cheat disputes as bad ad CSS or DOD no of course not but there were many more than just 2 of them that's for sure.

This misses the point completely and is not a shot at cal-hl2dm. It is advice to CU, if you want to stop cheating do like cs, and dod.
When someone is missing a SS or net_graph or anything suspend them for a week, missing demo suspend them for at least a month. If you find someone cheating in a pub/scrim take that eveidence and suspend them for cheating. Just make sure you have a rcon status to prove who it is.

No one in SW made any comments about grain cheating during the loss to ewr other then the fact that nino switched the match around to make SW play ewr on ewrs best map early in the season which was not what the auto scheduler had pulled for him.

Stop listening to butt hurt TLC that match never changed I did change some other matches that didn't make sense. If anything I would have changed $w vs ewr off since I had not played hl2dm in weeks and wasn't sure if I would make it. I walked in the door after a 5 hour drive and played that match. You should know this since you had to give me access to the IP from the beach.

the solution i see is for a board/group/whatever to get "trained" up on all the latest, greatest hacks around. and i mean really trained to scrutinize cheating. develop a bank of known demos with known hacks/ers for this group to learn from. even better would be for an admitted cheater to provide the lessons/examples to this group. then, this group can be used to settle disputes in league play. or server admins could tap into the group and get recommendations on player bans. of course, there are a lot of problems with this approach too. .

this is actually not a bad idea CD. security admins/developers, programmers, game developers etc hire the ppl they try to protect themselves from all the time. BUT, they also sign NDAs and i dont see that happening in that group. you would cerainly have leaks as to what the admins can currently detect, so in essence it would be counter productive. this is why VAC doesnt ban hackers right away.

I played 2 seasons of CAL when ACS was mandatory and I used it in maybe 3 or 4 games tops.

I was never approached about my not using it...

and yes, I was pretty awful back then, and I'm still not great now. At the time the popular theory floating around was that ACS was just used to scare people and it didn't actually do anything. While it might have taken screenshots or whatever, I don't think admins in DM were actually using it, making it nothing but a resource hog.

Edited because it sounded like I was bragging.

lols, i dont know who u are, and i dont give a shit but i thought it would be funny to come out with the obvious "was it because u sucked" comment.
So, was it because u sucked?

"Yeah just ignore him. He probably failed to conceptualize Europe has like 10x the players we do because its a continent, and that if America had the sheer number of players Europe does we'd have a similar cheating ratio"

I was kidding.
Europe has 1.37 times the US population 455 mil vs 330 mil.
Stop exaggerating and counting Russia and Turkey. They are in Asia.

"Yeah just ignore him. He probably failed to conceptualize Europe has like 10x the players we do because its a continent, and that if America had the sheer number of players Europe does we'd have a similar cheating ratio"

I was kidding.
Europe has 1.37 times the US population 455 mil vs 330 mil.
Stop exaggerating and counting Russia and Turkey. They are in Asia.

SELF EDITED

great joke Impala, im sure you had our European friends rolling on that one...

i suspect the CAL ACS was not as robust of an anti-cheat system as it was billed to be.

It took screenshots. Thats it. There was also supposed to be some console/cfg logging functionality, but it never worked for hl2dm. And even the screenshot function failed if the user didnt have admin priviledges or blocked it via av/fw or the like. Pretty worthless overall.

Anyhow, it should be pretty obvious to anyone with even the most minimal understanding of coding that clientside attempts to fix cheating are always doomed to fail.

The best way to deal with cheating is to prevent it at the source, ie adding sanity checks to the server code and removing all the trust states that currently exist (lag compensation etc). Tighten the server code enough (and run league match servers so they cant be tampered with by players) and most of worst hack methods / types would be rendered inoperable.

Fun fact- I played 2 seasons of CAL when ACS was mandatory and I used it in maybe 3 or 4 games tops.

I was never approached about my not using it.

Fun fact- your submitting an image with N O O B made out of brushwork and models in place of one of your s2 1v1 match screenshots didnt go unnoticed, but since you were already knocked out of the playoffs by the time it was noticed, the 4 week ban would have been pointless. Hence you were never approached about it.

i suspect the CAL ACS was not as robust of an anti-cheat system as it was billed to be.

It took screenshots. Thats it. There was also supposed to be some console/cfg logging functionality, but it never worked for hl2dm. And even the screenshot function failed if the user didnt have admin priviledges or blocked it via av/fw or the like. Pretty worthless overall.

Anyhow, it should be pretty obvious to anyone with even the most minimal understanding of coding that clientside attempts to fix cheating are always doomed to fail.

The best way to deal with cheating is to prevent it at the source, ie adding sanity checks to the server code and removing all the trust states that currently exist (lag compensation etc). Tighten the server code enough (and run league match servers so they cant be tampered with by players) and most of worst hack methods / types would be rendered inoperable.

Fun fact- I played 2 seasons of CAL when ACS was mandatory and I used it in maybe 3 or 4 games tops.

I was never approached about my not using it.

Fun fact- your submitting an image with N O O B made out of brushwork and models in place of one of your s2 1v1 match screenshots didnt go unnoticed, but since you were already knocked out of the playoffs by the time it was noticed, the 4 week ban would have been pointless. Hence you were never approached about it.

wtf are you talking about Ko-Tao?
Pretttty sure that was someone else...

if you werent hacking, why would you put yourself and your team in jepordy by not running ACS? running an application and clicking a drop down isnt that time consuming. i guess, there was always that hope of having this topic come up 1-2 years later.

yes.

if you werent hacking, why would you put yourself and your team in jepordy by not running ACS? running an application and clicking a drop down isnt that time consuming. i guess, there was always that hope of having this topic come up 1-2 years later.

Because I was on a very crappy computer at the time and I couldn't justify dropping down from 20-25 fps to 13-17 fps in times of intense action. Not to mention alt-tabbing to start ACS literally took like 10-15 minutes, assuming that I didn't crash from it. I know other people had similar problem too.

I'm not sure why everyone's attacking me though.. I was just trying to contribute to the discussion that ACS didn't work, i.e. CAL wasn't even getting everybody to use it. Had I gotten banned for a week or something I would have rethought my not turning it on.

I'm not sure why everyone's attacking me though..

I'm not sure why there are people in this thread who don't even play the game anymore, much less in a league, giving their opinion. Beyond that, I'm not sure why so many people here are still arguing about a 1-2 year old dead league and hack accusations that came from it.

sounded like cheese was bragging more than trying to "contribute".

I'm not sure why there are people in this thread who don't even play the game anymore, much less in a league,

Well thats an asshole thing to say dont u think, is it so wrong to take an interest?

I am sure many people "neglected" to run ACS. The problem was that it didnt notify the admins if someone didnt run it so every team/player had to be checked manually each week. With no prizes at stake, I guess it wasnt worth the time to do it.

I'm not sure why there are people in this thread who don't even play the game anymore, much less in a league,

Well thats an asshole thing to say dont u think, is it so wrong to take an interest?

Nothing wrong with taking an interest, but arguments and butthurt about old CAL/ACS and hacking disputes aren't what this thread was for nor do they really help IMO.

Arugments and butthurt are a form of interest though

I'm not sure why everyone's attacking me though.. I was just trying to contribute to the discussion that ACS didn't work, i.e. CAL wasn't even getting everybody to use it. Had I gotten banned for a week or something I would have rethought my not turning it on.

That was my point to CAL had rules in place but never followed through with any of them. CU would be better served to enforce the little things that make it harder to get away with hacking.

I'm not sure why there are people in this thread who don't even play the game anymore, much less in a league, giving their opinion. Beyond that, I'm not sure why so many people here are still arguing about a 1-2 year old dead league and hack accusations that came from it.

KTE about a 2 year old match

Hardly an attack, just pointing out something humorous from league days long past.

Anyway, once i realized how useless acs was (aside from causing noticable fps drops and jitter on low end systems, since it seemed to eat a ton of resources and caused a noticable hitch every time it took a screenshot- a fine advantage for anyone facing a player with old hardware), i stopped caring if anyone ran it or not, and only checked as part of cheat disputes. Everyone disputed proved to be running the acs, btw.

Where CAL cheat disputes as bad ad CSS or DOD no of course not but there were many more than just 2 of them that's for sure.

This misses the point completely and is not a shot at cal-hl2dm. It is advice to CU, if you want to stop cheating do like cs, and dod.
When someone is missing a SS or net_graph or anything suspend them for a week, missing demo suspend them for at least a month. If you find someone cheating in a pub/scrim take that eveidence and suspend them for cheating. Just make sure you have a rcon status to prove who it is.

No one in SW made any comments about grain cheating during the loss to ewr other then the fact that nino switched the match around to make SW play ewr on ewrs best map early in the season which was not what the auto scheduler had pulled for him.

Stop listening to butt hurt TLC that match never changed I did change some other matches that didn't make sense. If anything I would have changed $w vs ewr off since I had not played hl2dm in weeks and wasn't sure if I would make it. I walked in the door after a 5 hour drive and played that match. You should know this since you had to give me access to the IP from the beach.

Who is listening to me? One of your fellow admins of the league? How would I know better than an admin does (who is the one making these claims)?

God you're so pathetic.

You are the one that made up that lie.

Revive old thread for story to amuse myself.

Shortly after I left 911, I ended up having to play in a CAL match with them against eWR on amplitude. me, da1, hertz (1 round), and someone else, herb maybe. I recall 'Strange' picking up the 2nd match after Hertz left.

Anyways, this was roughly my 2nd CAL match and I forgot to load the Anti-Cheat before starting my game. SO i typed it to all in chat. And now the funny part. Most of eWR and 911 said "oh shit, me too" and reloaded their games. apparently.

I don't think anyone used that thing reguarly, after reading this thread and experiencing that.

@ Valiums, I no longer have demos of these match, I'm pretty sure u played for eWR in that match however. Can you verify this? I know Rico, PB, and Nutri was there. I remember xbow-ing PB a lot while he camped Rocket and those shield pickups. One of the more exciting matches I played in.

I do believe overall we only lost by like 5-8 kills. If anyone has SS of this match, I would love to see them. This was the same season as HL2DM + CAL = Joke.

Most of eWR and 911 said "oh shit, me too" and reloaded their games. apparently.

I never played a CAL match where at least one person didn't have to leave to start it.

@ Valiums, I no longer have demos of these match, I'm pretty sure u played for eWR in that match however.

Valiums never played for ewR. He was on your team during that match. defme was the other person you were trying to remember.

One of the more exciting matches I played in.

I remember it. We kept wondering why we were playing because we had all given up on CAL at that point. I think that we actually decided to just say "fuck off" to CAL in that match actually. Grain and PB were lol'ing and arguing about something, I was lol'ing at them, and no one could hear defme, who was probably lol'ing at how ewR went about playing matches.

I do believe overall we only lost by like 5-8 kills. If anyone has SS of this match, I would love to see them. This was the same season as HL2DM + CAL = Joke.

Why? Just curious.

Fuck how many times did we play 911 on that shit map, I remember I played one of them and couldn't get over 25 fps with 8 people in that thing (map), by the end of the match we all agreed cannon was gone.

^ thats amplitude....i dont even remember that match lol.

I do remember cannon though, that map was shit.

I must be high

I think everyone in the high up competitive community likes amplitude IMO, most of ewR, $W, em0, Xs and 911 like it for 2v2/3v3. 4v4 is pretty shitty on it.

Also lol? I don't remember playing that match either, mustve been when I just returned to DM after a long hiatus, in another words a long fuck time ago.

Valiums:
"Yeah just ignore him. He probably failed to conceptualize Europe has like 10x the players we do because its a continent,"

Knowing Valiums tendency to leap to conclusions and wildly exaggerate most everything, when this was bumped, i thought...Hmmm, i bet he is full of crap.

What i found is this:
Europe estimates of population now dishonestly include Central Asia and Russia, which have never been part of the continent of Europe proper.
Armenia!? Ukraine?
So, take out these non-European non-EU countries and Europe has about 426 Million versus 309 Million.
My figure for Europe pop. excludes only the obvious Armenia, Azerbajan, Belarus, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Turkey, Ukraine, and Russia. I left candidate states in Central Asia to Europe.

Europe- 3,837,000 Sq. Miles (9,938,000 Sq. Km)
America - At 3.79 million square miles (9.83 million km2) and with over 309 million people, the United States is the third or fourth largest country by total area, and the third largest both by land area and population.

USA is roughly the same size as the entire continent of Europe.

Internet penetration in US (2010) 73.8%
Internet penetration in Europe (June 2010) 58.4%

.738 x 309000000 equals 228,042,000 citizens with Internet.
.584 x 426000000 equals 248,784,000 citizens with internet.

So much for 10 times the players!

My comment about Euro cheaters was really a joke brought on by many VAC bans that didn't go over well.
I have no problem with Europeans. I think they will make fine Muslims someday.

:/

Valiums:
"Yeah just ignore him. He probably failed to conceptualize Europe has like 10x the players we do because its a continent,"

Knowing Valiums tendency to leap to conclusions and wildly exaggerate most everything, when this was bumped, i thought...Hmmm, i bet he is full of crap.

What i found is this:
Europe estimates of population now dishonestly include Central Asia and Russia, which have never been part of the continent of Europe proper.
Armenia!? Ukraine?
So, take out these non-European non-EU countries and Europe has about 426 Million versus 309 Million.
My figure for Europe pop. excludes only the obvious Armenia, Azerbajan, Belarus, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Turkey, Ukraine, and Russia. I left candidate states in Central Asia to Europe.

Europe- 3,837,000 Sq. Miles (9,938,000 Sq. Km)
America - At 3.79 million square miles (9.83 million km2) and with over 309 million people, the United States is the third or fourth largest country by total area, and the third largest both by land area and population.

USA is roughly the same size as the entire continent of Europe.

Internet penetration in US (2010) 73.8%
Internet penetration in Europe (June 2010) 58.4%

.738 x 309000000 equals 228,042,000 citizens with Internet.
.584 x 426000000 equals 248,784,000 citizens with internet.

So much for 10 times the players!

My comment about Euro cheaters was really a joke brought on by many VAC bans that didn't go over well.
I have no problem with Europeans. I think they will make fine Muslims someday.

You're arguing about a point from over 6 months ago, also I was referring specifically to the amount of registered HL2DM league players in US vs European CU, not the entire fucking world internet. There are in fact over 150+ European registered league players in CU compared to our small league scene.

"Yeah just ignore him. He probably failed to conceptualize Europe has like 10x the players we do because its a continent,"

As anyone can see from reading the above, you wiggle and weasel your way out of another statement.
Regardless, the reason for more DM players has nothing to do with being a continent.
And that isn't what you meant in the first place.
Use your words more succinctly is all i can say.
Have a nice day.

"Yeah just ignore him. He probably failed to conceptualize Europe has like 10x the players we do because its a continent,"

As anyone can see from reading the above, you wiggle and weasel your way out of another statement.
Regardless, the reason for more DM players has nothing to do with being a continent.
And that isn't what you meant in the first place.
Use your words more succinctly is all i can say.
Have a nice day.

You besides also bringing up a point from 6 months ago which is pathetic in itself are claiming the ability to read my mind. I liked it better when you were on vacation and not posting on HL2DMU.

I have no problem with Europeans. I think they will make fine Muslims someday.

lols u mean muslims will make fine Europeans someday.

"You besides also bringing up a point from 6 months ago which is pathetic in itself are claiming the ability to read my mind. I liked it better when you were on vacation and not posting on HL2DMU."

One thing about you Valiums is that you have a habit of always making an issue into another issue.
I make a point, you make it 6 months old.
You make an obvious point based on your very words and you play the i didn't make that point point.
If i criticize something, i am a terrible Team Player.
If i opine, i am old and washed up or drunk or retired or on vacation or 6months too late.
Hell, nothing is ever valid for you. Only your opinion.
I didn't bump this thread. I did the research for my own knowledge, seeing lots of disinformation about how fucking GREAT Europe is.
I thought it would be interesting to see if you were right.
And of course, you weren't. Continent has nothing to do with it.
There are no "10 times the players" exaggerations of any sort.
It's like everything else Valiums: Always shifting the subject, throwing out ad hominems, denying what you said.

I am saying try to get hold of your mouth (or fingers, as it were).
And frankly, i don't give a rat's ass what you like or not.

Continent has nothing to do with it? Why does western Europe have roughly over twice the size of the United States in online gamers in broad statistics?

I still have admin in CU and checked active players in leagues, there's actually over 200+ members playing in CU compared to the 80-90 some players in United States eFPS. Continenet has nothing to do with how many gamers play? I think you're wrong, I think there is a correlation between how many gamers there are depending on comparing the United States to Europe, statistics show this and I'm willing to copy and paste my CU admin active player priveledges to prove it even in HL2DM. In eFPS about 10-15 of the members are combined Russian/Latin American on top of it.

BTW you are a terrible team player, you went about 20-50 the last draft scrim I had with you. An all around terrible player, terrible thinker.

Why don't you shut your fat lips and post some "Broad Statistics"!

That would be nice.
And subtract Russia and Asia and...

Europe has TWICE the online gamers as America!?!?
That is complete bullshit.
It's Nonsense.
They couldn't possibly have twice as many, considering America has more younger generational people!
Take a look at birthrates.
Internet penetration.

And stop making stupid ass false bogus arguments and personal attacks posing as logic, you fuck.

who cares anyways?

who cares anyways?

Im with Koncentrate, seriously WHO THE FUCK CARES.

Stupid arguement is stupid

Stupid thread is locked.

Last word.