What method do you prefer getting upstairs?

Hello guys,

I wanted to make a small "survey" or discussion as well about the methods you can get "upstairs" in a map.

There are only five possibilities (in hldm) I think:

- ladders (sometimes they s*ck when you get stucked etc but they dont need much of space )
- stairs / ramps (imo they are best but there is not always space for a stair / ramp )
- something like a hill like it is done in dm_lockdown next to the ar2
- elevator ( on a local host they are really fine but on linux server they s*ck hard!! I tested func_door and func_movelinear..)
- jumppad ( actually there a not real jumppads in hl2, it's just a trigger_push - I personally don't like them.

for the sake of completeness:
- teleporter ( but it is rather unusual for this aim..)

So what do you like / dislike?

"getting upstairs" means a "levelheight" like it is in dm_lockdown.

i like elevators - they work everywhere except for the 100 tick servers

Just be sure to add more than 1 way up, because elevators are generally not very protective when you're in the air (maybe a ladder/ramp elsewhere nearby, depends on the type of map you're looking for though)

everwhere except tick 100? oh, I have to check this one.

Thanks so far.

Yeah there is a bug with elevators at 100 tick. Generally best to ignore it though, this game is not made for 100 tick and HL2DM servers should not be run at that tickrate. If anyone complains, tell them to make their server 66 instead.

100 tick server also have less reliable phyics. Those servers where props bounce harmlessly off your opponent are typically 100 tick.

Good question...
I like almost all of them, but like you said, ladders for example are a pain in the *** if objects are under/over it. If you plan to use ladders, try avoiding placing objects nearby, that could be a good solution =P.
Jumppads are fun, but I wouldn't use it for a serious map. I mean, it's good for fast paced pub maps, but If you plan to make something for a league for instance, I wouldn't use them.
The only one I don't like much are teleports. They are good as long as they are used in a creative way (IMO). For instance, dm_biohazard. But I don't like those so used smoke clouds or bright spots as teleports.

dm_spookface_reloaded is an example of a map where teleports improve gameplay and flow and do not look out of place. dm_avalon is also an interesting idea where you fall off and teleport back to the top.

Generally stairs, ramps, and well made lifts/elevators are the standard. Ladders can have their place, but the mounts and dismounts must be considered, especially on maps with slams.

Piles of rubble can work, you just have to work hard at making sure there is nowhere on your displacements where players can get stuck. Try to avoid putting displacements near curved walls or circular tunnels, such as the tunnel leading out of the generator room in avalon, ledges you can get stuck under etc.

I try to avoid ladders if I can. Stairs are ok, especially when there's a smooth rail you can slide up. You forgot the quickest and most stylish method though; gravjump

ramps > stairs

i don't mind ladders

teleporter to get up sounds cheezey, I guess imo should only be used to get acorss the map.

Fast elevator inclosed like biohazard is fine

A jumpad system like most quake maps would be cool, not the jumpad in the middle of the map but just in place of a elevator to quickly get up would be different.

ninojman: I always make stairs like this:

http://home.arcor.de/swot2k/stairs_hl2dm.gif

Thats why for me there is no real technical difference between a stair and a ramp ( only optical )

Today I will test that difference with elevators concerning a server with 100 and 66er tickrate. Btw I parented this time a prop_dynamic with a func_door, maybe this could be a reason as well for another behaviour. And what I really hate is that the speed from an elevator on linux and windows server is NOT the same On a linux server it is always slower.

Teleporter: I agree to all here that it is better to get across the map

Mean Old Canuck: Yea, the problem of most of the ladders is that there is no cover. And right for a long way up ladders are not that good.

Well, thanks for all these posts, I try to post my testing results here.

aw well if you can do that with the stairs. That may be the best option as it would make the map look better without taking away from movement. You making a map for the contest?

Hi Swot. Is there any reason why you are not making the clip brush go all the way to the ground instead of start at the 1st step?

Okay, there is really an amazing difference between tick 66 and 100 (concerning the elevators..) they are less "laggy" and faster.

ninojman wrote:You making a map for the contest?

yes.

MeekMeekle: that was an older image, usually I am placing the clip brush until the ground.

The thing you have to understand is that HL2DM was never made for 100 tick. The engine is not supposed to function at that tickrate. 100 tick was added at the last minute. As a result there are many little issues and bugs that at first are not apparent, but become more and more obvious once you realize the tickrate is to blame.

The problem with adding a ramp clip to stairs is that the player will lose speed if ascending a ramp whose grade exceeds 45 degrees, and will be unable to ascend at all if the grade exceeds 60 degrees. Actual stairs can have up to an 89 degree grade and still allow 320 ups movement. Also, while ramps are much more friendly to advanced movement, they can also feel sloppy at times and not allow as much precise control.

I prefer to make my stairs standard in the center half, with each side quarter ramped so the player can choose their ascent style based on circumstance. This setup also gives the staircase a "framed" look, which adds extra detail and ambience to the map.

Regarding methods of ascent, they all have their place. Even a long ladder or staircase can add fine play value if implimented correctly.

From a selfish movement-based perspective, I much prefer stairs or ramps. easier to cop out and jump back down if you have to, whereas if you jump off a ladder your speed is practically nill.

I've included almost every single one of these tools in my two maps (I still never got to see either in competitive play, what a shame for me ]=). Here's my input on them.

Ladders
Ladders make for an interesting way to reach some place. For example, you could walk up a 90-degree wall with these things. They create a rather loud sound when being touched, although the climbing sound itself is mutable by crouching. Ladders force a player to have a rather limited amount of movement, but being able to latch onto a ladder is rather easy. You can press E on it, or just walk onto it. In ctf_revolution, there's a balcony with a ladder that ends in midair. You can use a jump pad to reach that ladder, which requires some finesse to pull off but can grant you some possibilities and advantages. In ctf_connectors, there is a very long set of stairs, which is easily guarded by orbs and crossbows. It takes a long time to go through and isn't particularily stealthy, but it'll do if no one is watching that spot. However, on your way out with the flag, you can just drop down the ladder way quickly and pay 10 health off as a trade off.

One glitch ladders have is that if you are killed while going between a func_ladder and ladder_end_point of whatever those entities were called, you will respawn on the ladder. Either that, or you respawn on it at a chance of luck. I'm not too sure which one.


Stairs / Ramps
Ramps are rather simple, newbie-friendly, and offer a unique level distinguishing factor with such simplicity. Ramps can give higher-heighted players an advantage, especially if the ramp is really big and high such as the entrance to the ballroom in connectors or the side entrance in revolution. It's harder to SMG nade guys on a higher level, but ramps make it easy to get onto the same floor height as that guy while something like a ladder would have that guy be able to attack you. You can also ramp jump, or trimp, on them, allowing you to jump greater heights. King_air (axed for now due to lack of interest in HL2DM's competitive scene and broken computer) implemented a few spots where ramp jumping would offer you small bonuses, such as being able to reach the top of high boxes that would give you an SMG nade, armor, or something else small as well as a height advantage.

Stairs, on the other hand, can be quite annoying UNLESS player clipped to act as a ramp. You can get stuck on them if you jump, halting things like bunny hopping. Some stairs have gaps in between them, acting as a grate to let some bullets but no explosives through, as seen in Lockdown and Revolution. These kinds of stairs allowed you to see where someone was, but your best bet to attack them wasn't to attempt to shoot through them. Ladders can also affect physics. For example, a grenade will roll smoothly along a ramp, but get stuck on a set of stairs. I'd recommend player clipping as many stairs as you can unless you're abusing their mechanisms and using the absolute minimum sizes to be manageable, like I unintentionally did on Connector's mini-stairs.


Hill etc.
I don't understand how this is different from ramps, unless you mean big, bumpy hills like in ctf_moyenage_eng or dm_avalon. They use displacements, and it's hard to make an easily manageable hill without sacrificing visuals.


Elevator
Well, jump pads are the same things as elevators, only that elevators are slower. Elevators generally only allow one guy per go, unless they're button-functioned or something. Elevators don't work in 100-tick servers I believe? I didn't play much in such servers using these maps anyway. Elevators should only be used at places holding something precious, like an RPG or something. For example, you'd have to sacrifice survivability and stealth to use a loud, slow elevator to try and get to the 200 charger/RPG spot. Slow elevators can help the pacing in CTF maps by allowing a fast-route be accessed by one guy at a time, similar to Revolution's roofs.


Jump Pad
Although Connectors and Revolution both had them, they used them in quite different ways. Connectors just had a ton of them placed on random spots, but not on much fighting areas. Revolution had them on more logical spots to give you a quick boost in offensiveness, were more practical for SMG nade jumping off of, and in general, were more useful. Jump pads are very versatile because they offer a wide variety of options. You use do "short hops" off them by sprinting off one without jumping at all, still giving you a jump albeit a shorter one. You can use them to reach really high places. You can shoot an explosive at yourself after jumping off one to reach INCREDIBLY high places while sacrificing your health (for example, to reach a high platform with an RPG in king_air). They can be used in the midst of battle to make yourself a harder target (particularily against projectile weapons, hitscan weapons not so much).

One big downfall with jump pads is that they're not very accessible to noobs. Don't overdo it if you want your map to be noob-friendly and popular > competitive and fast-paced. Connectors still had other options of movement and accessibility and lots of defensive options for the noobs, so it still remains played.


Teleporter
Not sure what to think of this, I've generally used teleporters for speed pipes. One teleporter I did include to reach a higher place would be the one from the bottom to the top of the crate area in Revolution. Because the teleport areas were inside pipes had trigger_push in them, it wasn't possible to telefrag. However, these places were able to be blocked by objects. It's possible to fix this by adding an extra trigger_push that pushes objects out of the pipes. Of course, teleports add interesting, but rarely used yet easily exploited elements. You can SLAM them, go inside one and wait for a guy to chase you and blast them, etc.

poconut wrote:I You forgot the quickest and most stylish method though; gravjump

Hehe, but this one is not that reliable, isnt it?

WT: I really didnt know all this 100 tickrate stuff at all. Fortunately you told me.
May be Valve will fix it one day? Uhhm. no!

Ko-Tao: Know what you mean, if a ramp gets to cliffy there is a strange behaviour in hl2dm.. especially with smaller edges which have more than 45 to the player.

Ko-Tao wrote: I prefer to make my stairs standard in the center half, with each side quarter ramped so the player can choose their ascent style based on circumstance. This setup also gives the staircase a "framed" look, which adds extra detail and ambience to the map.

Do you take clipbrushes or something like they made on dm_overwatch:



There are small ramps on the left and the right where you can slide up although they are really narrow.

Charles:

Concerning hills: yes, I mean discplacements and often it is not easy shaping them well that there is no place where you can get stucked / sticked / and so on
But everything is possible with some clipbrushes 

Stairs: full ack, but those clipbrushes dont influence any physics and so on only the player?

Elevators: You are right, we should differ between elevators which take the player to places holding something precious and elevators who really belong to the maps layout they should not be very slow and button-functioned in my opinion. All in all there shouldnt be that many elevators I think

My present conclusion: It is really hard to get everybody pleased.

Yes, i use the method on dm_overwatch, but with the side ramp portions much wider and extending from base to top of the staircase.

Ladders in HL2DM just plain suck , honestly I would only put them in a new map if I meant for it to be a disadvantage IE you need to get up a tall ladder where you are bound to get killed half the time to get to a rocket. If there are physics objects the ladders can be a pain to get onto or off of, and if you press use sometime you end up dismounting right away depending on how the lag interpreted you movement. Any other ladder would never be the only way up it would be a supplement.

I like jump pads for big things as it makes the map faster and more interesting, and stairs or hills or natural physical methods for the rest.

It is also my opinion that teleports are a nice way of saying hey I couldnt make a map with good enough interconnection in a concise package so I put in teleports to make up for my lack of ability to layout a map well. The rare exception being a map like avalon where there was a genuinely cool game play added that could not have been done otherwise. I really think if you do use teleports they should have a sound triggered when you go through. Nothing more annoying then people being able to silently teleport in behind you.