A new home

I have set up this forum for the issues relating to the Killbox League. If it doesn't come to fruition, then this forum can easily be removed without effecting the other forums.

Based on the response and the interest though, I think this will be around for a while.

woot!

Note also that this exists for Killbox League discussion. Any other killbox discussion should take place in the cafeteria, or the appropriate department.

GLHF!

Good idea, it should be on its own.

thanks bro good job!!!


Tazzer


peace

Olright,


I want to offer my personal impression on how things are looking with the CAL Killbox League at the moment and an idea of how things can proceed.
The CAL Killbox League idea has emerged from the need to bring together two fractions of the HL2DM community; the high grav fraction that is heavily presented here in this forum and the low grav fraction which mostly isn’t.
The current preparations for the league shows a few interesting things:

There are, within the killbox niche, two main groups – that of TSGK / KBH and that of most of all others low grav servers and clans.
The first group - TSGK / KBH - is comprised of both high and low grav people.
The second group is comprised of people from a variety of styles in LowG.
Skill levels vary much more in the second group as it is not connected to bunnyhopping as predominantly as the first group.


At the moment the league seems to be dominated by TSGK/KBH regulars. The first group. It isn’t balanced as you can see one group is dominating the rest.
Do not mistake this to be any rant about KBH or TSGK clans, their servers, maps, members or any regular or regulars or anyone for that matter – I simply believe that what we have at this point is not a balanced system.


Two ways of moving forward:

One option is leaving things as they are and see how goes. It seems to me things are not picking up by looking at the time passed since the first committee meeting and the last.). things look like a mess. I think there are two possible outcomes to the current situation. The league will either fall for lack of interest and disagreement. Or, lamely, pick up and end with a lot of growls, ranting and general discontent from the first season (providing it made it through the preseason.)

The other option is stop! change how things are done. and start over.
I think because of the nature of LowG and Killbox and because of what I’ve seen untill now this League requires a different approach than the standard league.


This is what I think :


<> Splitting the league to two divisions. call it Division A and Division B for the sake of cake. Call it what you want but have each division cater ONLY and completely for its own group as detailed above.

<> Assigning an admin for each division and assign an overseeing admin who has a last say and who communicates with the game manger.

<> Each division’s admin will put together a committee of 3-4 people that will cover the whole decision making process regarding maps, settings, etc for their division only. So you’ll have two committees.

<> The two divisions will be separated from eachother and will not reflect or affect one another.

<> Forum polls and discussions are great tool and should be utilized however I would move the decisions from the forum to the committees, mainly to the divisions’ admins and mostly to the main league admin.
Keeping the forum polls and discussions as mere inspiration for the thinking process. not THE Thinking process itself.



P.S. Funny i’m presenting the forum a suggestion to not have the forum make the calls …but there lol…

Peace and HF to everyone regardless how this goes.


val

[EYE] Valar wrote: There are, within the killbox niche, two main groups – that of TSGK / KBH and that of most of all others low grav servers and clans.
The first group - TSGK / KBH - is comprised of both high and low grav people.
The second group is comprised of people from a variety of styles in LowG.
Skill levels vary much more in the second group as it is not connected to bunnyhopping as predominantly as the first group.


At the moment the league seems to be dominated by TSGK/KBH regulars. The first group. It isn’t balanced as you can see one group is dominating the rest.
Do not mistake this to be any rant about KBH or TSGK clans, their servers, maps, members or any regular or regulars or anyone for that matter – I simply believe that what we have at this point is not a balanced system.

I agree with what you are saying here. I also want to point out there has been no one from the other group of people you call Low g participating here in the discussions, no one protesting what has been tentatively decided upon. Based on that and that alone it seems that the current proposal is what is wanted the most and what will succeed.
I think that if a lower G league with a bunch of other wacky settings is desired, there is interest in it and people actually come here and ask for it, it could possibly become reality.

Based on what I know about CAL I don't think the game manager is just going to open up all these variations and divisions until he sees that there is interest in it and the admins to support it. I think that unless some of those ultra low g people show up here soon and start asking for something other that what has been proposed, it wont happen.

those ultra low g people

note that "second group" does not refer solely to ulrta low g. it's only a part of it.

Based on what I know about CAL I don't think the game manager is just going to open up all these variations and divisions until he sees that there is interest in it and the admins to support it. I think that unless some of those ultra low g people show up here soon and start asking for something other that what has been proposed, it wont happen.

...

the high grav fraction that is heavily presented here in this forum and the low grav fraction which mostly isn’t.

:

so,...admins - yes. representation of others from the second group - im not sure will happen (or happen much). this is a manifestation of the propblem in question
:

The CAL Killbox League idea has emerged from the need to bring together two fractions of the HL2DM community.

just to help clarifying .

val

Well... My ORIGINAL deadline to do this right was first Cal season of 09, because there is so much to go through. Frankly, I am at a loss, seems like we are doing the work OVER and OVER, trying to make ONE group or ANOTHER happy, the idea was to find a middle ground so we could get the interest from both LG and KB communities, then next season we could indeed split. The whole map situation is really wearing thin on me, a lot of late people coming into the discussion are the ones joining the committee and trying to change the decisions already made, perhaps we should have put a limit to on up to when you can join the committee, my thought right now is disbanding the VOLUNTEER committee and selecting representatives of each community in equal numbers.

I feel like a politician fighting off special interest [ha! oxymoron] where some people really want what is best only not only for their community but for their clans, that has to stop, we either need to find a middle ground or we can just call this trial a bust and not waste anyone else time, including mine {I am committed 100%, I just do not want to be commitable after a couple of weeks}

I have tried to make this process involving as much of the community as I could and seems to backfired, would it be best for one entity calling all the shots for the sake of competition? I am almost feel like saying ok you are not going to like anything so let me put out there what WOULD work for both as a middle ground, set it as law, tough get over it it's competition.

This is about UNIFICATION and its working better as a divisive force.

I am going to agree with Valar, There are two distinct types of players, I have set up two types of servers to deal with the situation also (one high grav and one low). Dividing the group, I agree, is not the definition of a community organization, but there is the problem of balance between the two types. Setting up two divisions may be the only way to please both factions. Since the map problem seems to effect the admins or planners the most: is it worth the time, trouble and frustration to force both factions onto one type of map. Since there is almost no way to please both with one map, other than 300 grav, there is only one solution that will please both groups and the admins:

Make two divisions.

I suppose I'm the only person here who represents the super low gravity clans, so here is my two cents.

There are three different levels of gravity in DM: Normal, Low, and Super Low. Normal and Low tend to go hand in hand, and although I'm sure the Normal gravity players will disagree, you don't realize how similar they are until you've been playing low gravity steadily for a few months. As shinigami stated, this is acting more as a dividing force. This is because these three game types were divided at birth. Making a killbox league is going to attract many elite killboxers, and that alone is enough to kill it for the super low gravity players.

So I guess what I'm saying is stop trying to pretend this is benefiting the super low gravity community, because long story short we are NOT interested in this league. I'm interested in playing as a low gravity player, but even so I am probably going to be destroyed because I'm not a true low gravity player, I'm a super low gravity player.

If you guys really want to "unify" all the players of the game, there is going to have to be a league which caters to the super low gravity and the low gravity spectrum, which involves the ridiculous air maneuvers and jumps and dangers of being caught in the air. Until then, the super low gravity community will simply not be interested because that's the kind of game we play.


Now for the other misconception, the name of this league is the LOW GRAVITY Killbox League. That means that the settings chosen are going to reflect low gravity play, which means sv_gravity 350 and sv_airaccelerate 50. Those settings allow for optimal low gravity play. If you're going to change the air accelleration, then all the low gravity is going to do is make it harder to maneuver, which is kinda dumb. If you're going to change the gravity, you might as well just call it the Killbox League and drop the low gravity gimmick altogether.


From what I can tell, this is the first time you guys have even considered the low gravity community, and which I thank you for the consideration, it's pretty clear that this league is going to be dominated by the regular gravity (and lowER gravity) players. As such, I recommend that if you're going to try and make a league for low gravity play, you remove it from a league which is going to attract MANY regular gravity players (killbox). And if CAL is never going to go in this direction: so be it, we've been a fine and happy community before you decided to do us a favor and create this league. Again, I appreciate the consideration, but don't lie to yourselves.

As a late comer to this discussion, although I have been following it for some time, I wonder if we are over thinking this project. In the style of, "if you build it, they will come", I am sure you would have plenty of people anxious to join the low-grav league. Put aside the petty squabbles and people trying to position themselves or their clans by choosing maps to thier advantage.

Pick a handful of maps and start the league. My own experience suggests the admins or players will have ideas once we begin playing and can fine tune it from there. CAL has been around long enough now, I cannot imagine the difficulty in choosing maps - not meant to be disrespect for those folks putting in tons of their own time dedicated to making this project work.

I read weeks ago the grav, friction etc. settings were chosen, pick a few maps and we can begin, with trials or as a test process, whatever you want to call it. Those who are don't like it don't need to play. If this process has ceased to be fun, let those unhappy few move on to torment someone else. Ease Your Ego...its all about playing with good people and having fun.

I understand it is a ranked tournament, but if the players are so serious about these minor details, what is the point?

As far as the whole concept of low grav, I am all for it. I much prefer low grav, I feel like I'm stuck in the mud with some of the more advanced players on normal G servers, low grav tends to even the playing field a bit, IMO.

Fire it up, and we will come!

Now that I have offended almost everyone involved to this point....I'm out.

-R

I think you are right steel the biggest problem is that you can not cover all the bases in one division and not everyone will be happy.

So far there seems to be quite a lot of interest in the low grav killbox division (350 gravity, 50 airacecelreate, all else standard) as noted by the people who have already committed to playing in it. Get the ultra low grav people together and have them come here and say who would be willing to play in a division if the settings were ultra low grav or w/e it is you want (come up with something and post it) If the players are there to support it and there is a admin willing to do it I'm sure it would be considered.

We are simply now running out of time, again I was hoping to get people here RIGHT now for this season so we could set the groundwork for NEXT season. I can see next season dividing at least the 1v1 division into two, killbox and low grav, ultra low grav will still have to wait for its day in the sun due to lack of response from that side of the community.

So far the 1v1's are the most popular, half of the clans on the 2v2 list have lost interest or have fallen apart, this is something we will be discussing with Fearsome.

We could try to split the 1v1's this week but what we would end up with would be a very small list of competitors for either side, expecting this to be perfect right of the bat is insane.

This is what I like to see happen, we keep our 8 maps we already voted for, we do only the 1v1 division, which we both Tazz and I can work, he the representative for the KB people, I for the LG people, so that NEXT season we can work INDEPENDENTLY of each other, but we have to show that we can RUN at least one season guys. These are baby steps, is not going to be perfect, we can't wait for everyone to be happy, it isn't going to happen, Let's move on this!!!

[EYE] Valar wrote:Olright,


I want to offer my personal impression on how things are looking with the CAL Killbox League at the moment and an idea of how things can proceed.
The CAL Killbox League idea has emerged from the need to bring together two fractions of the HL2DM community; the high grav fraction that is heavily presented here in this forum and the low grav fraction which mostly isn’t.
The current preparations for the league shows a few interesting things:

There are, within the killbox niche, two main groups – that of TSGK / KBH and that of most of all others low grav servers and clans.
The first group - TSGK / KBH - is comprised of both high and low grav people.
The second group is comprised of people from a variety of styles in LowG.
Skill levels vary much more in the second group as it is not connected to bunnyhopping as predominantly as the first group.


At the moment the league seems to be dominated by TSGK/KBH regulars. The first group. It isn’t balanced as you can see one group is dominating the rest.
Do not mistake this to be any rant about KBH or TSGK clans, their servers, maps, members or any regular or regulars or anyone for that matter – I simply believe that what we have at this point is not a balanced system.


Two ways of moving forward:

One option is leaving things as they are and see how goes. It seems to me things are not picking up by looking at the time passed since the first committee meeting and the last.). things look like a mess. I think there are two possible outcomes to the current situation. The league will either fall for lack of interest and disagreement. Or, lamely, pick up and end with a lot of growls, ranting and general discontent from the first season (providing it made it through the preseason.)

The other option is stop! change how things are done. and start over.
I think because of the nature of LowG and Killbox and because of what I’ve seen untill now this League requires a different approach than the standard league.


This is what I think :


<> Splitting the league to two divisions. call it Division A and Division B for the sake of cake. Call it what you want but have each division cater ONLY and completely for its own group as detailed above.

<> Assigning an admin for each division and assign an overseeing admin who has a last say and who communicates with the game manger.

<> Each division’s admin will put together a committee of 3-4 people that will cover the whole decision making process regarding maps, settings, etc for their division only. So you’ll have two committees.

<> The two divisions will be separated from eachother and will not reflect or affect one another.

<> Forum polls and discussions are great tool and should be utilized however I would move the decisions from the forum to the committees, mainly to the divisions’ admins and mostly to the main league admin.
Keeping the forum polls and discussions as mere inspiration for the thinking process. not THE Thinking process itself.



P.S. Funny i’m presenting the forum a suggestion to not have the forum make the calls …but there lol…

Peace and HF to everyone regardless how this goes.


val

you my friend,are exactly correct, i completely understand you're
viewpoint.

further more this league "has" to have 2 divisions kbh/tsgk type and LOWgrav type
or we are only going to get the "leet" from 350-600 grav dominating everyone in the league
and it will not be fun at all,most will prolly quti before the season is underway good.

so i put it out here as well, this needs to happen.

when i hit up Fearsome with the idea of the new maps list and asked for permission
his reply was: "nope,im letting you guys do this anyway you guys want to".

so this tells me we should be able to do it this way.

also "if"we do it this way we will have the right balance of admin power,the right amount
of committee mems on board and it should go alot smoother quicker and more efficient.
no more low grav v's middle to high grav players it would simplify everything imho.

2 divisions:

2 admins over both divisions for final approval

division 1. kbh/tsgk reg
division 2. low grav

division "1" have 2 "admins"(Tazzer 1v-- Pomp 2v) and 4-7 on the committee(clan/team representatives)

division "2" have an "admin" and 4-5 on the committee(clan/team representatives)

i think peeps from both divisions would be extremely happy!

so anyone interested in what im suggesting show you're support
and we will see where it goes??


Tazzer

peace

Shinigami wrote: Let's move on this!!!

"this" is not the original idea. "this" is not it at all. it will be insane (or maybe simply stupid) to say 'hey let's do this'...get into it just to come out with something else. isn't NOT sticking to the original concept the insane thing to do?

this is a game. we play it to have fun. i dont see why anything needs to be rushed. not if it's messing up everything. im against that.
if we can rearrange and do this right then im all for stepping on the gas.


val

Tazz- Cal is in a couple of weeks, if we have accomplished so little [apparently] in almost 4, what makes you think that this will happen in 2, especially since you just added 2 more sections, which will need 2 more admins. Go ahead and hit Fearsome for that idea, I will wait here

You also have to remember you came in half way through the process which has since stalled, it's easy to make quick decisions on your own but it doesn't work that way if it did, I would declare this pomp's week and have everyone send me their paychecks.

Val- I would like nothing better to take the time to this right, Fearsome would like to see something happen for this season so....

[EYE] Valar wrote: Skill levels vary much more in the second group as it is not connected to bunnyhopping as predominantly as the first group.

I find this an interesting statement and my experience shows it to not be true. Indeed skill levels vary greatly in both regular grav (600) and in ultra low grav (100)... it is just the skills are different. In regular grav the skill is bunnyhopping and in ultra low grav it is more about air control. When you move to a gravity that is in between (350) you have a chance to make use of both skill though neither one is dominate.

[EYE] Valar wrote: At the moment the league seems to be dominated by TSGK/KBH regulars. The first group. It isn’t balanced as you can see one group is dominating the rest.

This is rooted in two things. First, as has been shown here in a couple different ways by several different people, TSGK/KBH group is substantially larger than (or at least these maps and servers see more play than) the ultra low grav group. Second, this site is heavily weighted towards regular grav players, many of whom do have an interest in a killbox league (and are not adverse to it running under settings they typically encounter at KBH/TSGK).

[EYE] Valar wrote: One option is leaving things as they are and see how goes. It seems to me things are not picking up by looking at the time passed since the first committee meeting and the last.). things look like a mess. I think there are two possible outcomes to the current situation. The league will either fall for lack of interest and disagreement. Or, lamely, pick up and end with a lot of growls, ranting and general discontent from the first season (providing it made it through the preseason.)

I think the mess was more created by the committee choosing settings that clearly were not liked by the community at large. Once that mistake was fixed I believe there was a surge in interest from the KBH/TSGK players as witnessed by the current 1v1 list. I believe that this portion of the league could run as is today and be very successful.

[EYE] Valar wrote: The other option is stop! change how things are done. and start over.

What I think needs to happen is the current league needs to proceed in catering to the KBH/TSGK players. If there is enough interest from the ultra low grav people then they should form their own league and choose their own settings. Maybe you can lead this effort? As I have stated many times, the LG KB community is fractured enough that agreeing on settings that make everyone (or anyone) happy would be nearly impossible. But as the interest in a league that revolves around KBH/TSGK settings is clearly there and has momentum I think it would be a shame to derail that.

[EYE] Valar wrote: <> Splitting the league to two divisions. call it Division A and Division B for the sake of cake. Call it what you want but have each division cater ONLY and completely for its own group as detailed above.

Agreed. I think the one you see forming today (which has a good chance of playing in fall CAL) will fill the desire for a league that revolves around your first group: low grav (350-400) killbox.

I do think that delaying the formation until the first CAL season of 09 would be a big mistake. Indeed I will go as far to predict that if forced to wait then neither the low or ultra low leagues will happen.

L2k wrote: ... I also want to point out there has been no one from the other group of people you call Low g participating here in the discussions, no one protesting what has been tentatively decided upon. Based on that and that alone it seems that the current proposal is what is wanted the most and what will succeed.
I think that if a lower G league with a bunch of other wacky settings is desired, there is interest in it and people actually come here and ask for it, it could possibly become reality.

Based on what I know about CAL I don't think the game manager is just going to open up all these variations and divisions until he sees that there is interest in it and the admins to support it. I think that unless some of those ultra low g people show up here soon and start asking for something other that what has been proposed, it wont happen.

QFT

{MaX}Steell wrote: If you guys really want to "unify" all the players of the game, there is going to have to be a league which caters to the super low gravity and the low gravity spectrum, which involves the ridiculous air maneuvers and jumps and dangers of being caught in the air.

The double quotes on unify are correct. This doesn't really unify. It gives the ultra low grav players a league of their own but in no way mingles the two (or three) worlds. True unification would come if those players would start coming on the U and voicing opinions. Start interacting with the regulars around here. You are unlikely to get unification in the game because the two (or three) styles of play are so vastly different.

{MaX}Steell wrote: And if CAL is never going to go in this direction: so be it, we've been a fine and happy community before you decided to do us a favor and create this league.

I think you have the process confused. No one in CAL would just step up and create you a league. Instead people interested in a certainly type of league play do all the leg work to form the league, run it past the CAL admin's, and have to show there is enough commitment for the league to run successfully. The dominate interest has been in a league that centers around KBH/TSGK styles of play so that is what you see forming. There is nothing stopping you and Valar from taking charge and trying to put together a league that caters to just ultra low grav (or whatever it is you desire).

So long story short... I think Pomp has the right idea. Get the 1v1 league running with the settings and maps that are, for all intents and purposes, agreed on. The ultra low gravers can start preparing for what they want for next season and with any luck we can have both groups happily competing in CAL.

well put Bucky, I agree with everything you just said 100%

I too agree with everything you said Bucky.

BuckyKatt wrote:I think you have the process confused. No one in CAL would just step up and create you a league.

I wasn't really saying CAL made the league, I'm saying the people who did make the league did it with the intent of unifying the communities, though from what I've seen nobody from the super low grav community (with the exception of POMP, who is no longer in the community, and myself) actually came to set up the league.

I'll try to get more super low gravity players motivated to set up a league, but unfortunately there seems to be a lack of interest from the various clans with this play-style. I'm going to keep asking, however.

Shinigami wrote:If we at least get the 1v1 division going, we can do this season, during this season the next season can prepare. Bucky is on the money, who woulda thunk?

Pomp and Bucky>>>>>>>

and im going to come back and say................




















ok lets do this league for starters just like its going (except i'll have the maps up very soon)
tonite maybe lol.

you both are right (PompBucky) im over analyzing too early aaaannnnddddd
trying to please all too much.

so other than maybe a few other maps this is set in stone agreed by all???



Valar>>>>>>

how about this we start a plan for next season for the LOWgrav players
if all runs decent enough for this league season i will personally help you and any body
else to get a league up just for the LOWgrav community???

i now understand the need to get this rolling,i was ill informed about some things
now im crystal




Tazzer


peace

{MaX}Steell wrote:unfortunately there seems to be a lack of interest from the various clans with this play-style. I'm going to keep asking, however.

hence my attempts to make this league lure those also. but...anyway, good luck with your efforts Steel.
my opinions are well covered here and elsewhere so no need to push any further.
Best of luck with the league. HF taz, pompi and everybody.


val